Maybe I'll get to keep my name after all..

[PinkNorthPride]

Looks like you got a little drivel I’m there too!

Kinda disingenuous to set the record straight with a bit of falsehood mixed in to make you reflect well.

Pretty revisionist to throw your current baby in the mix with Naish, SS, Cab and North.

Core habe never been in the same league as the big five. They didn’t even emerge as a kite company until 2007. No bigger a player than Ozone, and much later to the party.

No 'drivel', this is the present state of affairs, not that it can ever really be proven but I'd bet Core's market share in kites is bigger than some of those players nowadays. Certainly here in the UK and I'm pretty sure in Germany and a lot of Europe. Naish has slipped away here, so has Slingshot, our market is pretty much North, F1 and a smattering of Ozone which like Cabrinha is mostly discounted via King of Watersports. North has always been the major player precisely because it sticks to the structure set up by the windsurfing industry and didn't allow itself to be a close out internet brand.

[a99]

I don't know how Ozone is big, but their designs, bars and colors and everything what their releasing now looking to me as 10-20 years old past aesthetics. Can't understand how people buying it.

[SaltWaterDog]

Can’t find any reliable sources online to confirm the industry figures for 2017 and though there’s a market research report from Technavio, you have to pay big bucks for access. It obviously differs geographically but within the EU and what I see on a regular basis I’m fairly certain SS is not a big player here. The big three here are Duotone (for now), Cab and F-One. Naish, LF, Best (for now), Airush, SS, Switch (and couple more I’m probably forgetting) are in the second tier.

I don’t think Best and Duotone will necessarily do well in future. Best seems a shell of itself even if it’s still open for business. Duotone I think will lose market share and quite a bit at that. But old North was by far the largest so they won’t be wiped out.

Ozone and Core are definitely top second tier in terms of sales but from their marketing and through those I’ve spoken to, they don’t strike me as companies who’s main focus is market share. They’re both two of the most expensive to buy from but I think they can justify that. Overall I’ve not flown better kites than Ozone or Core. No one else comes close to those two in terms of the complete package.

I do think Eleveight will make some serious moves in future though. The hemoraging out of Best basically means if you want “old Best” you now buy Eleveight. Their products are great and cater to buyers of all types.

And of course we will see what new North has accomplished in a few years time. One year with zero market presence is a big deal. Tough hill for North Sails to climb if they want to bring NKB back to complete dominance. I doubt they’ll be able to but only time will tell.

Here’s a link that mentions all the big boys but doesn’t rank them in any particular order:
https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboardin ... es-made-of

[bragnouff]

It sounds as if yet another international kite brand will be based in New Zealand.

In a nutshell: North is going South!

[PinkNorthPride]

Can’t find any reliable sources online to confirm the industry figures for 2017 and though there’s a market research report from Technavio, you have to pay big bucks for access. It obviously differs geographically but within the EU and what I see on a regular basis I’m fairly certain SS is not a big player here. The big three here are Duotone (for now), Cab and F-One. Naish, LF, Best (for now), Airush, SS, Switch (and couple more I’m probably forgetting) are in the second tier.

I don’t think Best and Duotone will necessarily do well in future. Best seems a shell of itself even if it’s still open for business. Duotone I think will lose market share and quite a bit at that. But old North was by far the largest so they won’t be wiped out.

Ozone and Core are definitely top second tier in terms of sales but from their marketing and through those I’ve spoken to, they don’t strike me as companies who’s main focus is market share. They’re both two of the most expensive to buy from but I think they can justify that. Overall I’ve not flown better kites than Ozone or Core. No one else comes close to those two in terms of the complete package.

I do think Eleveight will make some serious moves in future though. The hemoraging out of Best basically means if you want “old Best” you now buy Eleveight. Their products are great and cater to buyers of all types.

And of course we will see what new North has accomplished in a few years time. One year with zero market presence is a big deal. Tough hill for North Sails to climb if they want to bring NKB back to complete dominance. I doubt they’ll be able to but only time will tell.

Here’s a link that mentions all the big boys but doesn’t rank them in any particular order:
https://www.surfertoday.com/kiteboardin ... es-made-of

I've not seen anything lately but from time to time we get to see EU figures in and out that confirm Old Norths position and will in all probability continue with Duotone in the short term since their main strength is their distribution and the credit terms that they extend toward it, but that will only continue as long as there is sell through and with that name I think it's unlikely they'll sustain the numbers they did.

Best is screwed long since and Eleveight quite likely will be damned by association, like Mutiny they haven't made any effort on distribution which is key. Cab only sells on close out and nobody buys till it's 30 off which is no way to run a profitable concern and even consumers are beginning to realise their 'investment' is worth nothing almost instantly, nor have they come up with any innovation that has stuck, that key ball thing was a waste of time and resources.

F1 is steady, Liquid Force came for a while and went after a badly addressed bar issue, there are smatterings of Ozone and Airush but the former is badly managed and the latter has probably had better days and suffers like Cab with lack of something new to shout about. SS are screwed with bad sales & warranty staff as is Naish which doesn't leave much to compete with North and or its successor. I also doubt they'll pull it off, certainly unlikely if as suggested they're trying to do it from NZ and definitely unlikely if they use North Sails the sail company route to market.

[wrogu]

Cab only sells on close out and nobody buys till it's 30 off which is no way to run a profitable concern and even consumers are beginning to realise their 'investment' is worth nothing almost instantly, nor have they come up with any innovation that has stuck, that key ball thing was a waste of time and resources.

Its a consern of shops and it is not producer's problem.

[foilholio]

No Paragliding company that I'm aware of ever had any grasp of the market structure that windsurfing companies created.

First windsurfing companies didn't invent this market structure. It's an old game, persuasion driven purchases. Second you couldn't have possibly read and understood what I wrote because you are agreeing with me. That is the exact problem the windsurfing companies understand how to market stuff better than paragliding companies. The only paragliding company I am aware of that markets well is... Ozone and guess what they have had a good growth in kiting. Then this is going to hurt Ozone fans but some of their technology is not as good as some others with less market skills.

Lets remember who they are, Naish pretty much started the global ball rolling after Wipika failed to make any ground outside France. Slingshot ex Windsurfers from Gaastra, North, windsurfing arm, F1 owned by a windsurfer, Cabrinha windsurfer, Core owned by a windsurfer, between them the dominant forces with the best products.

Yes windsurfers were crucial to starting this sport. But that is similar if people who played soccer where crucial to starting basketball. The fact is though kitesurfing has more technologically in kind with paragliding than windsurfing.

The New North outfit will ultimately fail because they won't obey the market rules but they'll create waves that will upset the business for everyone for a couple of years as they battle it out with Duotone.

It may or it may not. It grinds against north fans but their gear is good but not the best. There is potential there to do better. But that is not the key to whether North will succeed or fail, that would be the marketing. That depends entirely how much money they will throw at it. If they spend a lot they will win. If they spend anything they will mainly damage Duotone. If both brands put up a good fight, maybe things will advance much faster than had they not, or maybe we will just get a lot of pimps etc.

As to market rules...if you think you have to sell though shops still at this stage, you are about to be shocked when a serious brand into serious marketing, with good gear takes the direct approach and slaughters the rest if they don't change.

[Mossy 757]

Can't change the fact that there's like a decade of internet material referencing "North Kiteboarding." Ads, blogs, ecommerce retailers, magazines...it's everywhere.

Duotone is going to have to outsmart Google and bring some STRONG SEO to the party in order to get over that hump.

[Toby]

Flysurfer also has a paragliding background!
Mother company is Skywalker.
Armin Harich, one of the owners, was German paragliding champion (As I remember it right)

[SaltWaterDog]

Switch is the only big manufacturer doing direct to customer distribution aren't they? Does anyone know more or less the direct effects of that approach on their position in the market?

I'll defer to Pink on this stuff because I'm not an insider but I do think foilholio is making some erroneous assumptions and there's pretty basic consumer theory to back it up. In terms of price/value perception the direct to customer approach seems pretty flawed if you ask me. You might think the cost saving aspects are worth pursuing but handshakes beat online purchase orders every time, there's no debate about that and unless you're willing to underbid everyone else, I don't see how circumventing dealers and doing your own distribution is advantageous. Dealers represent real value to the customer in a sport that is anything but cheap.

I agree with Pink that Duotone is not going to be dominant like old North in the long term, and they can thank themselves and North Sails for that. NKB will return in a years time and then it'll be a (re-)branding battle like the industry has never seen. It has already started. NKB with a product lineup that will look completely different from what NKB faithfuls know and they will hate that. Duotone with a product lineup that people know but don't have a name to associate with. And yes, this actually matters despite what people have commented on the forum. Branding is ridiculously important and the rational argument is not in dispute here. If you ride the Rebel because it's YOUR kite, then you're good to go. But...the vast majority don't and that's the point. No company in their right mind would screw around with brand value unless they had first done serious in-depth research or unless they absolutely had no choice. It's the latter in this case and corporate history is littered with ventures that have died fast and hard because customers could no longer associate themselves with the brand and its products. Branding cannot be quantified and once you start playing the branding game you don't stop. People buy the brand 'story', not the technical specs or the list of features that come with kite x from that brand. This whole "True Kiteboarding" vs. "True North" campaign from both of them that's just kicked off, how do we think that's going to go? Someone else commented in either this or another thread that competitors must be laughing their asses off. How could they not be!?

It's a complete mess for both and in a few years time I don't think either will be dominant the way old North was.