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Do all kites invert equally?

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galewarning
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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby galewarning » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:22 pm

And the technique is...? Please share. I have been able to invert just about every kite I've ever owned, it happens a lot less frequently as I've gotten more experienced, but I believe any kite can invert with the right [wrong] situation.
FLandOBX wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:58 pm
I think all kites invert equally. I...I think it's good to teach (advanced) beginners how to rectify an inversion on the water. A lot of (most?) kiters don't know how, but it'll save you a trip to the beach and a lot of headaches if you learn (and teach others) the technique...

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby FLandOBX » Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:32 pm

galewarning wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 2:22 pm
And the technique is...? Please share. I have been able to invert just about every kite I've ever owned, it happens a lot less frequently as I've gotten more experienced, but I believe any kite can invert with the right [wrong] situation.
FLandOBX wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:58 pm
I think all kites invert equally. I...I think it's good to teach (advanced) beginners how to rectify an inversion on the water. A lot of (most?) kiters don't know how, but it'll save you a trip to the beach and a lot of headaches if you learn (and teach others) the technique...
Here's a video that shows the technique. It's more difficult in high winds. Unlike the video, I always put my kite on the water at the edge of the window before fixing the inversion. Also, the video shows, but doesn't emphasize, what I call "rolling" the bar as it passes through the center lines. If you don't "roll" the bar, you'll often just change the position of the inversion without eliminating it. Most important: Don't let go of the kite!!! You'll be unhooked without an attached leash. If you let go of the kite, it's gone!

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=28839

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby mr_daruman » Fri Aug 03, 2018 6:37 pm

I haven't inverted a kite in years...So maybe kites are now less prone to this due to shorter bridles??
Or I just got better in controlling the kite. Anyhow I think its a combination of both.

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby Foil » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:34 pm

blimey!
I kite maybe 3-5 days a week.
This week- 6 days from 7.
The first kite inversion in many years(guessing 5-10 years)I witnessed right in front of me, a few days ago,a super scary inversion, as the loops were very fast and powerful.
If I had a kite that ever inverted it would be for sale the very same day, "scary kite going cheap" any offer accepted.

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby galewarning » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:21 pm

Guess what I call inverted is different than what we're talking about. Rolling the kite does indeed twist both pairs of lines - I call that rolling [tumbling] a kite. If you have the kite spin 360 while lying leading edge down on the water, that can twist one pair of lines, if a rear line goes over the top. Both of these problem I can deal with and that's whats shown in the video above. And then there's various ways to snag a bridle over or on a wingtip, a problem that has been minimized with shorter bridles, but sh*t always finds a way to happen.
What I think of when a kite inverts is when it basically turns inside out [inverted] and the top surface of the kite is facing the rider. I've let the kite [half] tumble again to try and fix it, but that doesn't always work and can make a worse mess... More confusing than amusing?

galewarning
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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby galewarning » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:43 pm

galewarning wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:21 pm
Guess what I call inverted is different than what we're talking about. Rolling the kite does indeed twist both pairs of lines - I call that rolling [tumbling] a kite. If you have the kite spin 360 while lying leading edge down on the water, that can twist one pair of lines, if a rear line goes over the top. Both of these problem I can deal with and that's whats shown in the video above. And then there's various ways to snag a bridle over or on a wingtip, a problem that has been minimized with shorter bridles, but sh*t always finds a way to happen.
What I think of when a kite inverts is when it basically turns inside out [inverted] and the top surface of the kite is facing the rider. I've let the kite [half] tumble again to try and fix it, but that doesn't always work and can make a worse mess... More confusing than amusing?
BTW, the last time I inverted a kite, and twisted both pairs of lines, was during an IKO instructor exam back in March. Resolving that, in shallow, warm and waist-deep water, ate up at least 5 minutes.

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:27 am

No, all kites do not invert equally, there are huge differences.

Kite inversion means the kite goes inside out wind on the top surface, with a lot of stress on the struts now.
Not to be confused with line inversion where the kite just tumbles through the lines so they are crossed, no biggie and can happen often depending on your style.

Inversion tendency is almost every designers nightmare, as it has not been so easy to predict for some reason.

Underinflation will of course accelerate this tendency, but that is outside the topic.

There ARE kites that are a lot more likely to invert than others.

Big or small kites do it.

When powered to the upper limit and very depowered and then loaded t.ex flying/diving the kite, those prone to inverting can do it, quite scary when it flaps like a stingray suddenly, or might even yank down in an uncontrolled loop.

These are typically the ones that tends to invert easier when they tuck down forward or roll on the water.

I have seen ONE kitesize in a line do this more than the others, at several brands, especially earlier years - so I think they have an idea what is causing it since we see it less often now.

Apparently Slingshot has a bad reputation in this thread, have no experience myself with these and could also be earlier years maybe?
Think it could be a coincidence they are mentioned I dont know, as there ARE kites that do it more often than others, amongst many many brands through the years IMO.

Here is an old clip with an example - it seems underinflated and could be the reason but the principle is the same for those prone to inverting.
Difficult to see as it starts outside the view - but what happens is the kite inverts in high winds when dived starting and becomes a live pretzel :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfMgXVRZIxs

Inflating rock hard, if you got one with this tendency, can usually stop this from happening.

You somehow treat the symptoms this way, not the disease and root cause, but it works quite well :D

Great that newer kites seem to have lost this tendency :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby magic%20Ed » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:46 am

I think that the "bad reputation" for slingshot is not related to real kite inversion, but to the line inversion, or something mysterious is happening. Have used and observed a lot of slingshots since 2004 and the only time one inverted was due to wave washing and tumbling.

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:58 pm

magic%20Ed wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:46 am
I think that the "bad reputation" for slingshot is not related to real kite inversion, but to the line inversion, or something mysterious is happening. Have used and observed a lot of slingshots since 2004 and the only time one inverted was due to wave washing and tumbling.

I think you could be right, that alone in this thread some, not deliberately, seem to talk about line inversion where the kite tumbles forward and into the lines.

This is a phenomenon that happens on (too) many kites indeed, also kite and size specific.
Have seen some delta shapes doing this a lot, overflying and then tumbling :o

A design issue and very different brand wise how good or bad they are in this respect.

8) Peter

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Re: Do all kites invert equally?

Postby pj sofine » Sat Aug 04, 2018 2:41 pm

galewarning wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:21 pm
Guess what I call inverted is different than what we're talking about. Rolling the kite does indeed twist both pairs of lines - I call that rolling [tumbling] a kite. If you have the kite spin 360 while lying leading edge down on the water, that can twist one pair of lines, if a rear line goes over the top. Both of these problem I can deal with and that's whats shown in the video above. And then there's various ways to snag a bridle over or on a wingtip, a problem that has been minimized with shorter bridles, but sh*t always finds a way to happen.
What I think of when a kite inverts is when it basically turns inside out [inverted] and the top surface of the kite is facing the rider. I've let the kite [half] tumble again to try and fix it, but that doesn't always work and can make a worse mess... More confusing than amusing?
I'm with you on this one! :thumb:


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