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Triple & quad ripstop

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Faxie
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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Faxie » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:17 pm

tautologies wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:46 pm
Faxie wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:52 pm
Well, for one, according to the 'test results', D2 and T9600 are very similar. That was not what we were led to believe when D2 was introduced. So at least someone is lying, wether it be North, Naish, or Teijin.

According to North about Trinity: The 3x2 yarn combination has proven to be the best solution in performance as well as durability, overall superior to any 2x2 or 4x4 yarn solutions. Well, looking at the graph, not according to Naish.

Somehow I have a feeling that in a few years the multiple ripstop hype will stop (people are already opening their eyes it seems, because we are getting to a point where it gets kinda ridiculous) and it will be single ripstop again, but with smaller squares. Will be called 'high density ripstop' or something like that (looks like that name already exists, but you get the point). Just watch.
You know neither of these graphics are really showing enough for us to say much about how anyone are lying. It might be that both are correct. Your only assumption for someone not telling the truth is that the method in which they test are the same. That might not be the case. Both tests could be true because of how they test it. :thumb:
Your only assumption for someone telling the truth is that the method in which they test are not the same.

Still, it's strange that North is getting a 70% better tearing strength (in favor of their new material), while Naish finds almost no difference (in favor of their new material). And according to North, the Trinity is superior to the X4. If a different test method can produce that much differences, you cannot take them seriously at all imo. The only credible test would be a standardized 3rd party test, and none of those exist to my knowledge.

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tautologies
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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby tautologies » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:26 pm

Faxie wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:17 pm
If a different test method can produce that much differences, you cannot take them seriously at all imo. The only credible test would be a standardized 3rd party test, and none of those exist to my knowledge.
I get what you are saying, but would you trust a 3rd party test if you knew a company had paid for the test? My sense is that you would still not trust it, because now it had been bought and paid for etc.

My point on the comparisons is that we have too little information. I know I like the quad tex. It feels stiffer, and the material seems to keep fresh a lot longer.

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby BOEMIX » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:50 pm

The new game changer! :lol:

DenisT
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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby DenisT » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:32 pm

:o :o

Could it be used in Kite industry?

https://www.facebook.com/10000172622105 ... 150364407/

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Greenturtle » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:59 pm

tautologies wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:42 pm
Greenturtle wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:48 pm
First of all, Im sure your slash is an awesome kite, and I respect that you find my own materials analysis to be short on science in almost every regard, because it is.

Well, I am skeptical of companies data about themselves generally speaking, not just in the kiting world, Im guilty as charged there. However-

Specifically I can offer that Best kahoona 10.5m going from 2014 to the 2015 model gained 136g of weight as measured by myself, despite the company proclaiming that it reduced dacron and lowered weight. They did reduce dacron. But added some plastic rubber scuff guards all over it instead of using “kevlar” as before. Also, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, ocean rodeo still claims they are making their lightest kites ever on the website, and as much as I give them credit for producing a really nice, truly lightweight 3 strut kite, it is not as light as it used to be. Liquid force says the solo v3 is lighter than v2, others on here have found them to be the same weight in reality.

If it is so easy to check the figures, then please someone other than naish employee, tell us how much a slash, pivot, etc weighed then (pre-quadtex) vs now. And while youre at it please lay them out to verify that the size did not change.

My experience with a beater kite is at least real world experience, and my personal conclusion is that those lighter materials are strong enough.

If keeping a given design as light as possible is good for performance, then thats what I want. If I was going to crash a kite over and over into bushes and trees, then maybe quad tex would be awesome, but added seams would probably contain the damage better than any canopy material choice.

My foundation in watersports is canoe racing, and we love us some lightweight carbon equipment. Some people even special order canoes and paddles in lighter layups than the lightest company offerings, requesting less resin or cloth, and paying more. This is true for marathon but also slalom, where agility is key. And this equipment does not even fly. So my viewpoint is kindof coming from that side of things.

Hey. Thank you for being able to discuss this in a neutral and analytical way. I appreciate that a lot. For me I know that a claim like what Naish is making doesn't impact my life a whole lot so I do not invest a whole lot of emotion or even that much thought into it. I make a mental checkmark and put it into a pile pile of overall impression. My impression is that they care about moving their product forward on multiple accounts. Not only by shape design but also by material design. What I care about is that the gear is great.

I think significant changes in weight I would probably care about, but tiny changes falls in my meh pile, but I can appreciate that we all focus on slightly different things tho. It is important that companies focus on all of it tho.

On the Best claim, I obviously have not tested it, nor do I really weight my Naish kites. Could it be that you had used the new kite and therefore it had some humidity? My pint on your anecdotal data point is that if you test one kite, there is just so much random variables that will never be uncovered if we stick to that. For instance, my buddy dropped his 14 Torch into some huge waves..the kite eventually washed over the reef as bundle and we all thought the kite was completely toast. Upon unraveling the kite was unscathed. It was nuts. Then a week later another friend dropped his kite from a different company (I'm not naming brand because people will just start moaning and it is beside the point) in some tiny barely knee high waves. The kite got hit and blew a panel before it popped on the reef. My point was I could conclude that the quality of Naish was so superior to the other brand that it was almost laughable, but I think one data point will not really be able to represent a full truth. Instead, it should try to inform part of the overall image. What you know from your example is that some kites can survive abuse for a lot time regardless of material. It would be interesting to see some neutral party test, but I am afraid that some people will trust it because a company paid the bill to have it verified etc. Its a hard cycle to bypass for a company.

Anyway. take care my friend. Not trying to discredit you or say that you are completely wrong, but maybe inject another perspective.
The Best kahoona 2014 10.5m was weighed new and came in at 3538g (woof). A year later it still weighed 3538g when the 2015 10.5m showed up at my door and was also weighed- 3674g for that one (checked, rechecked, opened it up and took out the little foam piece, etc) despite Bests’ promise that this model was lighter due to reduced dacron. At least they were very inexpensive so I wasnt complaining. Well what I did was to sell and move on to kites that actually were quite a lot lighter.

I do think a lot of durability situations, where one kite survives a huge pounding and then another rips open on a seemingly normal wipe out, are just luck. I think any kite from any manufacturer could rip wide open (or not) on a reef or wave crunch, based on all the variances in those situations.

What I see that is slightly concerning is that the number of (multi strutted) kites that really focus on a light weight build are more and more in the minority in favor of heavier materials that may, or may not, increase durability.
If you want a new three strut 12m that weighs in at no more than 3062g (gen 5 or earlier flite) you better get it quick before they are gone.

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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby alford » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:37 am

Greenturtle, do you know for certain the Gen 6 Flite is heavier?

Donniehall14
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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Donniehall14 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:45 am

DenisT wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:32 pm
:o :o

Could it be used in Kite industry?

https://www.facebook.com/10000172622105 ... 150364407/
Pretty cool stuff.

Greenturtle
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Re: Triple & quad ripstop

Postby Greenturtle » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:46 am

alford wrote:
Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:37 am
Greenturtle, do you know for certain the Gen 6 Flite is heavier?
viewtopic.php?t=2398957

According to the information shared in that thread:
14.5m up approx 300g at 3700
10m up approx 220g at 2930

Went from single to double ripstop among other changes
Still way lighter than most.
Roca v2 14m 4170g for comparison there.


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