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Sending & lift

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Jukka
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Sending & lift

Postby Jukka » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:57 am

So, you ride 25 km/h and let the kite rise slowly near 12 and pull the bar in, and wow, nothing happens.
Then you do the same, pull the bar in again close to 12, but prior to that send the kite fast up, and Boom, you're flying.

Some thoughts:
- The kite moves away from riding direction, so apparent wind becomes less (if any meaningful change), so it's not that providing the lift
- Even if more powerful position in wind window from sending makes a difference, it doesn't seem to be providing the largest part of the lift (or does it?)
- Or is it that when you edge hard and load the lines, sending fast allows to preserve (long enough) and redirect the line tension upwards, instead of releasing the tension when rising the kite more slowly?

Help me here, what really makes the huge difference?

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby SaltWaterDog » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 am

Not really sure what you’re asking here. Line tension generated through your edge is the deciding factor if you want to boost big. With respect to kite speed, it operates like an airplane wing. The faster it moves through air the more power/lift/pull it will generate. Once you get the timing right between sending the kite and loading up, that’s when you go big.

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby Jukka » Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:37 am

SaltWaterDog wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 am
Not really sure what you’re asking here.
Just thinking what is the reasoning why sending the kite lifts you up.
SaltWaterDog wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 am
Line tension generated through your edge is the deciding factor if you want to boost big.
Yeah, that I know. And I was thinking this is probably the reason. You send the kite up fast to preserve the tension and redirect it up.
But I was not sure if there is more "something" behind the sending movement of the kite, that I don't understand.
SaltWaterDog wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 am
With respect to kite speed, it operates like an airplane wing. The faster it moves through air the more power/lift/pull it will generate.
Sure, but when sending, the kite moves against apparent wind, so even if moving up fast, does kite air speed change really have big effect to the upwards lift. I might as well think that kite air speed could even decrease during sending..?

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby Lokihel » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:03 am

Jukka wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:37 am
Sure, but when sending, the kite moves against apparent wind, so even if moving up fast, does kite air speed change really have big effect to the upwards lift. I might as well think that kite air speed could even decrease during sending..?
How fast does the kite backwards relative to you when you're sending it? Not that fast. The loss (if any) in apparent wind speed is nothing.
Also, it is often compensate by allowing the kite to sit deeper in the window when sending. Whatever tension you lose because of moving the kite back is more than made up by sitting deeper in the wind window.

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby SaltWaterDog » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:14 am

Jukka wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:37 am
SaltWaterDog wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 am
Not really sure what you’re asking here.
Just thinking what is the reasoning why sending the kite lifts you up.
SaltWaterDog wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 am
Line tension generated through your edge is the deciding factor if you want to boost big.
Yeah, that I know. And I was thinking this is probably the reason. You send the kite up fast to preserve the tension and redirect it up.
But I was not sure if there is more "something" behind the sending movement of the kite, that I don't understand.
SaltWaterDog wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:04 am
With respect to kite speed, it operates like an airplane wing. The faster it moves through air the more power/lift/pull it will generate.
Sure, but when sending, the kite moves against apparent wind, so even if moving up fast, does kite air speed change really have big effect to the upwards lift. I might as well think that kite air speed could even decrease during sending..?
So we've got one part of the picture, sending it while sheeting the bar in but that does very little for you without line tension, which is the second part of the picture. Line tension is what gives you the big boost because you are redirecting that power from holding your edge to sending the kite and sheet the bar in. Line tension is created/kept through your edge and not by sending the kite. If you want to boost big you need to generate serious power through your edge BEFORE you send it. Forget all about big air if you you're not generating power through your edge. This is why edge control is the most important aspect of kiteboarding and the more 'loaded up' you ride with your lines in general, the better your kiteboarding becomes. Does that make sense? I'm sorry for not giving more specific advice, but without having seen you jump giving you advice is like throwing darts with my eyes closed.

Let me ask you, have you been told that you need to back off your edge and head a little down wind before your jump? If so, please forget about that advice. It makes no sense if you want to go big. Edging hard on a good upwind course creating max line tension with kite at 45 before you send it, is the only thing that gives you big boosts.

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby Beardytello » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:55 pm

SaltWaterDog wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:14 am
Let me ask you, have you been told that you need to back off your edge and head a little down wind before your jump? If so, please forget about that advice. It makes no sense if you want to go big. Edging hard on a good upwind course creating max line tension with kite at 45 before you send it, is the only thing that gives you big boosts.
This bit of advice is the thing that actually got me jumping decent heights.

Landing on the other hand is a different story. :lol:

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby SaltWaterDog » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:06 pm

Ha! Yeah keeping your nerve the first few times you manage to couple everything together and go beyond that 5-6 meter ceiling is the next bit. But it really is all about finding your stance, getting that heel side edge fully engaged and then blasting it. Too bad most kite schools don't let their students know that there are some beginner habits that need to be left behind in order to progress.

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:28 pm

Easing off your edge before a progressive edge is for pop, not height. It lets the kite drift deep and sets it up for a quick surge when you edge while getting you heading off the wind a bit. Totally different thing from sending it to boost big.

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby Faxie » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:49 pm

Line tension is an effect, not a cause... Doesn't matter for the result though, but I think it's important to realize. It's the kite that creates the lift, plain and simple. The board holds it down and directs the kite in the apparent window, making it possible to increase the power from the kite.

Tie 200kg on a line and then snap it. See what happens, almost nothing. Lines store a force mostly, not power. No work getting done in a line if it doesn't stretch.

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Re: Sending & lift

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:24 pm

You ride at a certain speed (and angle to the wind) in a certain wind.

This gives you a total kinetic energy at the very moment you leave the water, higher energy the more you can edge before leaving without losing speed.

To jump as high as possible, you have to convert this energy to "height" (potential) energy, as much as possible for max height.

Meaning, IF you can redirect the kite so you yourself (being almost all the weight) end up with zero wind in your face - you end up in the max possible height.

Theory, but it actually works.

As this is the reason why sending the kite so you slow your forward speed down after the takeoff, and edging hard before so you dont lose your energy in the takeoff, works :thumb:

If we dont have any gusts or similar, you can not get more energy from the apparent wind when you have left the water, so from now on it is all about slowing yourself down relative to the wind you feel in your face - to get max height :naughty:

Meaning sending the kite, and also looping the kite, might give you max height.

Not easy, nor always desired as you want to have some speed in the landing again - but this is usually done by flying the kite forward again, or looping the kite, to get speed again both relative to the air, but also the water of course - for a smooth landing :D

Energy stored in the lines can be zero, it doesnt work this way...

8) Peter


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