Help with Ben Wilson Surf Slow Leak

[badgb21]

Hi Bradley,
Need to first establish a few things (maybe I missed them) Is the leak in the LE or a strut?
To determine Pump up kite in normal way, clamp off all one-pump tubes. Now what deflates over time, main LE bladder or a strut?
(It would be rare to have a leak in LE and strut(s) but possible I suppose).
This is a crucial first step to identify which tube leaks.
If it's the main LE, treble check it's not the main valve(s) with some weak soapy liquid, as this will save removing the bladder - wiggle that sucker! Same for a strut - check the one pump connection for leaks.

Once you know which section is leaking (and it's not the valves or connections), pump the full kite back up normal flying pressure and use a weak soapy solution in a spray bottle and begin searching for the leak. Coat the entire section a bit at a time and focus on area that would rest on the ground.
Take your time and wiggle the valves etc as described above, as the flanges may only leak this way.

It would be very unusual not to find some kind of leak this way.
If you do, check for more than one leak, then mark the leak(s) on the kite and remove the bladder, the mark will give you some indication where to search again on the bladder itself, again using the spray should do it if no pool available.
Patch the leak(s) but before you reinsert the bladder, rub the kite material against itself vigorously in the area of the leak. This is in case there's a bit of dune grass stuck in there, that will re-puncture the bladder.

If you really can't find a leak then my money is on the main valve(s)
Get yourself a spray bottle, sit comfortably and take your time, work through the above methodically and you will sort this.

Good luck.

[bradleygood]

Yes I'm going to do the soapy spraying this afternoon when I get home after pumping it up a little more. And I'll also do the dunking and wiggling of the hoses/valves. Great idea thanks. I did email BWS days ago and provided the link to this thread and have not heard anything yet. I'm focused on finding the issue and if I can't I'm going to return it. But I think I'm going to find it some how.

[bradleygood]

Hi Bradley,
Need to first establish a few things (maybe I missed them) Is the leak in the LE or a strut?
To determine Pump up kite in normal way, clamp off all one-pump tubes. Now what deflates over time, main LE bladder or a strut?
(It would be rare to have a leak in LE and strut(s) but possible I suppose).
This is a crucial first step to identify which tube leaks.
If it's the main LE, treble check it's not the main valve(s) with some weak soapy liquid, as this will save removing the bladder - wiggle that sucker! Same for a strut - check the one pump connection for leaks.

Once you know which section is leaking (and it's not the valves or connections), pump the full kite back up normal flying pressure and use a weak soapy solution in a spray bottle and begin searching for the leak. Coat the entire section a bit at a time and focus on area that would rest on the ground.
Take your time and wiggle the valves etc as described above, as the flanges may only leak this way.

It would be very unusual not to find some kind of leak this way.
If you do, check for more than one leak, then mark the leak(s) on the kite and remove the bladder, the mark will give you some indication where to search again on the bladder itself, again using the spray should do it if no pool available.
Patch the leak(s) but before you reinsert the bladder, rub the kite material against itself vigorously in the area of the leak. This is in case there's a bit of dune grass stuck in there, that will re-puncture the bladder.

If you really can't find a leak then my money is on the main valve(s)
Get yourself a spray bottle, sit comfortably and take your time, work through the above methodically and you will sort this.

Good luck.

Thanks - When I started out I did pump it up and clamped all the valves to the struts. I remember that the LE and center strut got soft so I suspected that the clamp valve was leaking. Anyway, after spraying the whole kite with soapy water and not finding anything, I started removing the strut bladders and checking them - now all of the bladders including the LE are out of the kite so I'm just going to keep checking them outside of the kite until I find something. Thanks for all of the ideas and info.

[bradleygood]

Update:

Last night the LE bladder looked and felt the same after leaving it 24 hours. I pumped it up even more - I think I went just to the edge of dangerous. Then I dunked it back into the tub and stretched and wiggled all of the valves. Nothing. Then loaded up the soapy spray bottle and did the whole thing carefully, nothing. I then measured around the middle with a sewing tape and this morning it was the same size. I don't think I have a leak in the leading edge. But I'm leaving it until tonight to dry and to measure again. After that I'm going to pull the tubes off it, deflate it and install it back into the kite and focus on the strut bladders. I'm going to re-dunk all of those and spray them with soapy water. I really am suspecting the tube connections with the white tape on them (see first post pic). It is obvious that there was a problem in the past. And I remember when I pumped it up and shut all of the clamps, I remember not being able to isolate the area of the leak...which leads me to believe that I may be losing air from all of those connections. I am thinking of glueing them together. If they are glued together, I can still remove the tube from the valve after that connection. I'm not sure why I need those to be removable. I don't think I do. I don't suspect the connection between the tubes and the valves, they all seem supple and tight and don't leak under water while wiggling. But I highly suspect the white taped connections which are hard plastic to hard plastic - makes sense it would leak when twisted and I but that thing leaks like crazy while flying. I can't imagine why it wouldn't actually. So tell me if I shouldn't glue those things. And what glue to use? Glueall from my kitefix kit? Contact cement?
Also, I'm going to replace all of the zip ties. Should I use those small ones like it has now or upgrade to the standard size zip tie which is about twice as wide?
And in the pic you can see these clear 1 inch collars that where around the zip tie. Seems like some kind of shrink type thing. I think they are stock because I saw them in the BWS LE video. Not sure what they are for and if they should be replaced with new ones.

Thanks!

[juandesooka]

If it is holding air 24 hours, then it's problem solved, pump it up and use it!
I'd put it back together, pump it up, close off all the valves, and leave it a half day. If it is still rock hard, then keep an eye on it, and tackle the problem if/when it recurs.
If one strut or the LE is deflated, then start again with isolating the problem, with the bladders in.

You should not need to glue the rubber tube to the plastic connection. That is the standard connection in 100% of inflatable kites. The rubber provides a sufficient seal. The zip tie is just to ensure it doesn't come off. The white stuff on the threads looks like plumbers tape, to make the connection even more airtight. Don't know about those clear plastic bits, doubt they are needed.

You may want to replace the rubber tubes if in doubt. They are cheap, standard rubber tubing ... that is a standard maintenance item with older kites, as the bending rubber eventually degrades (and that can be a source of leaks -- which I learned early on, pulling bladder, testing it all as you are, put it back and together and figured out it was the rubber tube.....a 2-minute 10 cent repair)

[bradleygood]

Yea will just the LE bladder is holding, not everything together, that is the problem.

I'm not talking about gluing the tube at all. Not the tube, but the hard plastic white piece in the pic that inserts into another hard plastic white piece. This is where I suspect the leakage is happening. I can glue that and both sides of the tube (the LE side and the strut side) still connect and disconnect to their valves. So I see no need for that hard plastic connection. And since someone before me tried to make it "better" with plumber's tape, I'm even more sure that it is a problem. So why not seal it up with glue. As I said I can still remove the tubes from each side.

Just trying to figure out why it came apart in the first place. Maybe it was a "better" way to disconnect than removing the tube from the nipple?

[juandesooka]

Looking at your pics, I have no idea what that hard plastic bit is about -- is it on all of the strut connectors or just the one slingshot one? (which I assume is a past repair)

This is not intended to be a complex system: each bladder has a valve that glues on. The valve has a serrated nipple. A rubber tube connects the nipples on the leading edge and strut. That's pretty much it. So the possible points of leakage are the bladder itself, the glue under the valve, the valve itself (eg cracked), or the rubble tube (degraded from bending over time).

Do you need the hard plastic bits or are you better to get rid of them and just use standard rubber tubes?

Dunno ... this is sounding more complicated than it should be. You may want to phone REAL and ask them about these repairs, did they do them, what the pieces are ... I hope the price reflects the quality, and these repairs were disclosed!

[bradleygood]

Thanks...

I got on the phone with Drey at BWS today. He is the legacy kite guy. He was wonderful. They no longer have replacement bladders. But he said that this kite, which is the Noise classic not the Noise Pro, would get slow leaks in the valves in the LE. So he could sell me replacement valves for $10 each, there are 7 in the LE, so that is $70. He said it was not a hard job to replace them and described the process. I asked him about the plastic bits and he said they were not standard. So basically I was getting the idea that I have a kite that has been repaired already several times. He said to check each valve and you usually can see it start separating or a bubble or something. He answered every question I had and was great. When I got home, the LE was 2" smaller around the middle and something inside me clicked and I think I'm done. I'm going to sleep on it and make a final decision in the morning. But right now I'm going to browse new kites from REAL. My plan is to call them in the morning and tell them that I'm not happy that I bought a kite with the 15 point inspection and that included holding air for many hours. The sales guy there was great and I don't blame him. But it's not right. I paid $199 and if I put $70 in and then have to replace tubes or glue plastic bits and all that, plus how solid are the valves in the strut bladders? So there is another $50. I think it makes more sense to put that money into a new kite and I'd be much happier. I am glad for all of this because I learned a lot - how to remove everything and all the different ways to search for a leak and the weak spots of kites, etc. All really good stuff. But I believe I'm done now and want to fly a kite with no issues!

Thanks again for all of your help!!! I really appreciate this forum already and am glad to be a part of it.

[bradleygood]

This is the one I'm thinking about getting in the 9M - $799. Minus $199 for the return of the BWS minus lots of headaches. Plus I'll be a much happier guy!
Seriously I really like what I hear on the videos below and what I read on the product page and the reviews. I think it fits me well and will for quite a while and I like the looks of it too and it matches my green slingshot board!
https://www.realwatersports.com/collect ... 9341153321

Videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WPZdkvANFQ&t=108s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwWvzd3aqo8

Maybe they will even take some off the price or throw in a pump for my trouble. I'm going to ask.

[juandesooka]

The valves are a problem with old BWS kites: I replaced roughly 10-12 in 6 months across my quiver. Though I suspect I may have helped to delaminate them by leaving in a hot car. That was what I was talking about when I suggested wiggling them, as the glue tends to come stuck and unstuck depending on the angles and pressures. The repair isn't hard but it is a hassle and it may be questionable if you fully trust them in sketchy situations.

At $199, you have scraped the barrel of kite costs ... kinda got what you paid for, a 6-7 year old well-used kite. There's 3 levels of kite buying: new, then buying that kite 1-2 years later at half price, then another few years later at 10-20%. If you want to go cheap, then you better get good at repairs, plus expect some down time for gear failures. If you can afford to get something new, then you will get those so-nice first worry free uses. Ideal if you can guy last year's leftover at closeout prices.