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Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Forum for kitesurfers

Underpowered or Overpowered Riding

Lit Foil
4
4%
Moderate foil
13
14%
Just enough to Foil
7
7%
Lit twintip
21
22%
Moderate twintip
13
14%
Lit Strapless
4
4%
Moderate Strapless
17
18%
Mega Loops
7
7%
Mega Hang time
10
10%
 
Total votes: 96

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iriejohn
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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby iriejohn » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:35 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:13 pm

Personally, I am coming off about a 3 year stint of kiting on a 5.5m (at 100kg) while 90kg kiters are still on 11-12m kites.
Assuming you and other kiters are using the same type and about the same size of board what make and model of kites are you using which enable you at 100kg to kite with kites roughly half the size of kites being used by lighter riders around you?

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby Matteo V » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:38 am

iriejohn wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:35 pm
Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:13 pm

Personally, I am coming off about a 3 year stint of kiting on a 5.5m (at 100kg) while 90kg kiters are still on 11-12m kites.
Assuming you and other kiters are using the same type and about the same size of board what make and model of kites are you using which enable you at 100kg to kite with kites roughly half the size of kites being used by lighter riders around you?

I know you like the simple answer, so you could attribute my using smaller kites simply by my model being Best "Kahoona's" circa 2011 (all dead now) to 2013 with up to 2015's waiting around for my current ones to die from old age/usage. And I will say that using all the same model kite really lets you feel the huge differences between years that make them feel almost as different being another brand/model.


But that is not the whole story. I passed the "big guy - small kite" onto another rider out on the coast and he made it work with different kites. Though Kahooha's are "grunty", there are much more grunty kites out there. So the kite is not the most important part. The root of the situation is how you ride, NOT what you ride. I like(d) to generate lots of speed without caring about upwind for the first 10meters of travel or so. Once the speed is generated, I maintain it while turning more upwind AND FINDING THE SWEET SPOT OF SHEETING ANGLE ON THE BAR FOR EVERY ANGLE OF TRAVEL for even more power via apparent wind. DON'T JUST SHEET IN! Maybe my background in foil kites helped me with this concept, but it is soundly rooted in the physics of airfoils. There is one angle of attack to the apparent wind at the kite that yields maximum efficiency/power. It sounds simple, and most kiters are actually (or making an attempt at) doing that, but the degree to which you do that is the key. Or put simply, there is much more room for development of skill than I , or other "smaller kite" kiters have achieved.

My skill development history saw me riding powered to overpowered as a beginner on kites sized for my weight or larger - just like almost everyone else. But I developed the smaller kite feel by flying my biggest kite (13.5m) in winds that saw me walking (or not even being able to launch) upwind because there was not enough. I believe this slowed down the dynamic intricacies of being underpowered so I could build the instinct to apply that skill when the wind was higher and my kites were faster/smaller. There is something to be said for the differential speed involved between the 2 medias which we leverage against (water speed, vs wind speed). There is no question that some of the low differential aspects do directly translate to high differential aspects. Though most of the properties are significantly different to require some distinctly different adaptations in technique. And, sometimes I was just "too chicken" and wound up on a smaller kite out on the water - thus I had to make them work.

Some kiters ask me why I loop my kite so much and the easy answer is that I am using a smaller kite than they are and I weigh more. But the detail of it is that I like to have power/pull EXACTLY where I want it (remember you can only pull on a kite string, not push) and I like to match quick turns with quick redirects of the kite. If I want to turn the other direction quickly, a normal sized kite holds up that turning speed. Or rather, the kite is still turning to the other side while I am already on the other tack if I am powered/overpowered. And that is the park and ride look and feel. With respect to wave riding heel side to toe side while powered or overpowered, either:

1. Rider turns, then turns the kite and waits for the kite to get to the "right spot" to pull in the desired direction
or
2. Rider turns at a slower rate to match the turn rate of the kite


Neither of those suit me anymore. I like to instantly redirect the kite (as much as a minimum size kite allows), and match my turn to what I WAN'T - not what a bigger kite dictates. My style looks alien to "park and ride" style, but I like it and this feel really suits my mentality. Or rather, it makes things interesting for me as there is lots going on at a high rate of speed. This rate of speed blurs the "thought" typically associated with "park and ride" and turns it into "pure reaction without thought". That is where I go to my happy place.


But should you wish to dismiss my explanation as "egocentric", I will say that there are many kiters out there with a MUCH greater potential than I have. I am not a quick learner. My skills are due to putting in the time, sleeping on it, and making lots of mistakes - some of which I may never overcome. And that is where I am cautious about "selling" my style to others. The way I typically package it is that I am an advocate of "instinctual flying feel". This allows most average people to ditch the academics while out on the water, and just go for feel. Not to say that the academics are useless, but rather you just don't have time to "think" about every movement out on the water. Especially when a portion of continuous brainpower must be put into the safety aspects of riding/other riders/bystanders.

To get to the point I got to with smaller kites, you really need to get out there on them and deal with the frustration at first. Then try new stuff with your trainer kite. Your trainer is the smallest AND fastest kite you have. If you can recover a continuous loop without looking at the trainer, you have a beginning to moving down to smaller kites. But like any learning, you will have some frustration. And that is how you know you are learning.

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby iriejohn » Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:37 am

Matteo V wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:38 am
iriejohn wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:35 pm
Matteo V wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:13 pm

Personally, I am coming off about a 3 year stint of kiting on a 5.5m (at 100kg) while 90kg kiters are still on 11-12m kites.
Assuming you and other kiters are using the same type and about the same size of board what make and model of kites are you using which enable you at 100kg to kite with kites roughly half the size of kites being used by lighter riders around you?
I know you like the simple answer ...
I did hope for a straightforward answer. In vain, evidently.
Matteo V wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:38 am
... so you could attribute my using smaller kites simply by my model being Best "Kahoona's" circa 2011 (all dead now) to 2013 with up to 2015's waiting around for my current ones to die from old age/usage. And I will say that using all the same model kite really lets you feel the huge differences between years that make them feel almost as different being another brand/model.


But that is not the whole story. I passed the "big guy - small kite" onto another rider out on the coast and he made it work with different kites. Though Kahooha's are "grunty", there are much more grunty kites out there. So the kite is not the most important part. The root of the situation is how you ride, NOT what you ride. I like(d) to generate lots of speed without caring about upwind for the first 10meters of travel or so. Once the speed is generated, I maintain it while turning more upwind AND FINDING THE SWEET SPOT OF SHEETING ANGLE ON THE BAR FOR EVERY ANGLE OF TRAVEL for even more power via apparent wind. DON'T JUST SHEET IN! Maybe my background in foil kites helped me with this concept, but it is soundly rooted in the physics of airfoils. There is one angle of attack to the apparent wind at the kite that yields maximum efficiency/power. It sounds simple, and most kiters are actually (or making an attempt at) doing that, but the degree to which you do that is the key. Or put simply, there is much more room for development of skill than I , or other "smaller kite" kiters have achieved.

My skill development history saw me riding powered to overpowered as a beginner on kites sized for my weight or larger - just like almost everyone else. But I developed the smaller kite feel by flying my biggest kite (13.5m) in winds that saw me walking (or not even being able to launch) upwind because there was not enough. I believe this slowed down the dynamic intricacies of being underpowered so I could build the instinct to apply that skill when the wind was higher and my kites were faster/smaller. There is something to be said for the differential speed involved between the 2 medias which we leverage against (water speed, vs wind speed). There is no question that some of the low differential aspects do directly translate to high differential aspects. Though most of the properties are significantly different to require some distinctly different adaptations in technique. And, sometimes I was just "too chicken" and wound up on a smaller kite out on the water - thus I had to make them work.

Some kiters ask me why I loop my kite so much and the easy answer is that I am using a smaller kite than they are and I weigh more. But the detail of it is that I like to have power/pull EXACTLY where I want it (remember you can only pull on a kite string, not push) and I like to match quick turns with quick redirects of the kite. If I want to turn the other direction quickly, a normal sized kite holds up that turning speed. Or rather, the kite is still turning to the other side while I am already on the other tack if I am powered/overpowered. And that is the park and ride look and feel. With respect to wave riding heel side to toe side while powered or overpowered, either:

1. Rider turns, then turns the kite and waits for the kite to get to the "right spot" to pull in the desired direction
or
2. Rider turns at a slower rate to match the turn rate of the kite


Neither of those suit me anymore. I like to instantly redirect the kite (as much as a minimum size kite allows), and match my turn to what I WAN'T - not what a bigger kite dictates. My style looks alien to "park and ride" style, but I like it and this feel really suits my mentality. Or rather, it makes things interesting for me as there is lots going on at a high rate of speed. This rate of speed blurs the "thought" typically associated with "park and ride" and turns it into "pure reaction without thought". That is where I go to my happy place.


But should you wish to dismiss my explanation as "egocentric", I will say that there are many kiters out there with a MUCH greater potential than I have. I am not a quick learner. My skills are due to putting in the time, sleeping on it, and making lots of mistakes - some of which I may never overcome. And that is where I am cautious about "selling" my style to others. The way I typically package it is that I am an advocate of "instinctual flying feel". This allows most average people to ditch the academics while out on the water, and just go for feel. Not to say that the academics are useless, but rather you just don't have time to "think" about every movement out on the water. Especially when a portion of continuous brainpower must be put into the safety aspects of riding/other riders/bystanders.

To get to the point I got to with smaller kites, you really need to get out there on them and deal with the frustration at first. Then try new stuff with your trainer kite. Your trainer is the smallest AND fastest kite you have. If you can recover a continuous loop without looking at the trainer, you have a beginning to moving down to smaller kites. But like any learning, you will have some frustration. And that is how you know you are learning.

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby slim_charles » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:54 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:37 am

I did hope for a straightforward answer. In vain, evidently.
Lol... I almost got as far as paragraph two! :sleeping:

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby Matteo V » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:43 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:37 am
I did hope for a straightforward answer. In vain, evidently.
Sorry, but I tried my best and left out some other important aspects that I knew you would not follow like:

1. Board trim (roll, pitch, and yaw-on a quad finned board)
2. Tack angle rate of change vs change in kites position in window for a deep sitting kite (Kahooa's sit back and have lower potential pointing [upwind] capability)
3. Downlooped jibes to maintain speed and quickly point upwind again when turning around
4. Lower kite position with a smaller kite to maximize power transfer into motion instead of uplift/reduction in downward force on the board (small kites are typically kept lower in the window because they do not develop enough power for both lifting up on the rider and pulling the forward)

Can you give me a word limit to my answers? And should I not be able respond in a complete manner in said limit, what should my response be?

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby iriejohn » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:37 pm

The questions was:
irie wrote:Assuming you and other kiters are using the same type and about the same size of board what make and model of kites are you using which enable you at 100kg to kite with kites roughly half the size of kites being used by lighter riders around you?
Matteo V wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:43 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:37 am
I did hope for a straightforward answer. In vain, evidently.
Sorry, but I tried my best and left out some other important aspects that I knew you would not follow like:

1. Board trim (roll, pitch, and yaw-on a quad finned board)
2. Tack angle rate of change vs change in kites position in window for a deep sitting kite (Kahooa's sit back and have lower potential pointing [upwind] capability)
3. Downlooped jibes to maintain speed and quickly point upwind again when turning around
4. Lower kite position with a smaller kite to maximize power transfer into motion instead of uplift/reduction in downward force on the board (small kites are typically kept lower in the window because they do not develop enough power for both lifting up on the rider and pulling the forward)

Can you give me a word limit to my answers? And should I not be able respond in a complete manner in said limit, what should my response be?
You are a master of obfuscation. :lol:

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby jumptheshark » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:43 pm

Properly powered.

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby Matteo V » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:44 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:37 pm
You are a master of obfuscation. :lol:
I leave out some details in an effort simplify it for you. Then you say it is too long.

I mention that I left out many details in an attempt to show you I tried to simplify for you. Then you complain I "obfuscated" you.


I am open to your further suggestions as to how to post in a manner that does not confuse you or go over your head.

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby iriejohn » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:39 pm

You've already patronised me by saying ...
Matteo V wrote:Sorry, but I tried my best and left out some other important aspects that I knew you would not follow like:
... and then you do it yet again!
Matteo V wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:44 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:37 pm
You are a master of obfuscation. :lol:
I leave out some details in an effort simplify it for you. Then you say it is too long.

I mention that I left out many details in an attempt to show you I tried to simplify for you. Then you complain I "obfuscated" you.

I am open to your further suggestions as to how to post in a manner that does not confuse you or go over your head.
:lol:

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Re: Poll: Underpowered or Overpowered

Postby geopeck » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:26 pm

Things are getting snippy here, definitions are kind of fuzzy. Some people enjoy being lit to extents that most would be considered overpowered, to me overpowered exactly equals no fun for the style I want to ride.

Matteo is definitely onto something when he points out that most intermediate riders don't recognize that they could rig much smaller and still have upwind ability, even have fun if that's your thing. It's a whole skill set that almost noone at my beach has, it opens up the riding to using the kite more actively and being more opportunistic with waves and chop. It's more work with the body because you're engaging the surface more and feeding power back to the kite, transferring your momentum into turning speed with the kite and turning all the kite energy back into speed and upwind efficiently.

Everybody starts by asking the kite to just tow them across the surface without compromise or input from the rider, it's normal. Lots of people stay stuck in that mode. I see it with students quite a bit and it's an invisible hurdle - they build upwind skills while just a bit overpowered, but don't understand how much force is left for them to exploit as the wind is lighter or they are rigged smaller.

Riders who want to sky it on every tack may learn it but it isn't going to be their bag - one guy I ride with complains that he doesn't have enough juice with his 14 when I'm perfect on my 10, same weight, similar boards, different goals. He wants big air by just pulling the bar in, I want controlled slash.

For my favorite style of riding my best benchmark for overpowered (across board types) is that I want to be able to hold down the power I get from downlooping deep across the window. My benchmark for underpowered is that I want to be able to come out of that same downloop transition with as much speed as I came into it with. If either of those doesn't happen I should be on a different kite or board, or adjust riding style to second most favorite.


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