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Fatality in France

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bragnouff
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Re: Fatality in France

Postby bragnouff » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:41 pm

tomtom wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:13 pm
downunder wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:25 pm
The short leash or any leash can't prevent the bar end getting stuck in a hook...

And that is not preventable no matter what.
it can be prevented by not using spreader bar hook...
Not having a spreader bar hook goes against the principle of not being hooked in for immediate launch, which was mentioned in this thread. Unless you can conveniently clip in your shackle one handed afterwards.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby Flyboy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:59 am

Slappysan wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:41 pm
JakeFarley wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:17 pm
the wind speed would go from 30-50 knots. WOW, I do not know how anyone could ride in those conditions. Remember that the force of the wind is exponential to the wind speed. How do you see the gusts coming in the surf?
You simply rig for the gusts and work the kite to generate it's own power in lulls.
What kite size do you rig for 50 kts?!

One of the important safety factors for me in the last few years, is the fact that I now ride a fast surf board & am able to use a kite size 2m smaller (at least) than someone on a TT. This means that the wind has to pick up quite a lot before kite control starts to become a problem. This is very different from the "old days" when, like most people, I often rode very powered on small TT's with a big C-kite.

At my local launch almost everyone rides surf boards. The kite sizes used are pretty consistent: a 9m for anything over 17/18 kts, a 7m for anything consistently over 23/24 kts, a 5m for anything consistently over 27/28 kts. Optimal wind for a 5m on a SB is around 30 kts. Up to 35 kts. is doable, anything over that & it becomes extremely difficult to ride waves.

Although the peeps get pretty excited when the forecast is 30 - 40 kts, the reality is that winds like that are generally too strong & gusty for controlled riding. The waves may get bigger, but are usually very hard to ride - it's simply too difficult, with the combination of power in the kite & speed on the wave, to depower the kite enough set a rail on the bottom turn. A few people have 4m kites, I've never seen anything smaller used, but I suspect that going much smaller would make the power very on/off as wind over 35 knots is always (at least what I've experienced) very gusty.

It's different with TT riding, especially when the major goal is just to boost high. The KOTA guys are young, strong, very skilled & very experienced in very strong winds ... but they're not wave riding, in fact they're barely on the water at all. They make it look easy, but even for them, screwing up can have major consequences.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby iriejohn » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:56 am

grigorib wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:47 pm
Jumping on a rope goes wrong more often and is less precise. Foiling on a rope is magic though.
I don't jump much. Or more to the point I can jump but landings can be problematic because my left knee ACL is, sorry to be technical about this, fucked.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby iriejohn » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:58 am

tomtom wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:36 pm
yea, but you can use fixed setup /no slider/. Whole loop in to hook is wrong idea if you arent unhooking. But too far OT. My fault.
RIP.
Yes, I can do this using a fixed ring on the centre of my Dynabar spreader bar but prefer rope (and see above).

Yes, RIP. :(

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby Slappysan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:53 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:59 am
What kite size do you rig for 50 kts?!

At my local launch almost everyone rides surf boards. The kite sizes used are pretty consistent: a 9m for anything over 17/18 kts, a 7m for anything consistently over 23/24 kts, a 5m for anything consistently over 27/28 kts. Optimal wind for a 5m on a SB is around 30 kts. Up to 35 kts. is doable, anything over that & it becomes extremely difficult to ride waves.
All LF Solos
30 knots and up I ride my 4.5m kite.
12m ideal 20 knots, I can hold down until 24g28 knots and still have fun.
9.5m ideal is 24 knots, I can hold down 30g35 and still have fun.
6.5m ideal is 28 knots, I can hold down 35g40 and still have fun.
4.5m ideal is 32 knots, I can hold down 40g45 and still have fun.
I ride a high volume (30L) 4'10" x 19" surfboard.

I used to ride OR Prodigy 5m and Blade Trigger 5m in big winds before I switched to 4.5m Solo.

Like I said before unless you are riding Rooster Rock the wind strength goes up and down throughout your session. So yes, while 50 knots is a bit overpowered for wave riding, it's still manageable and the wind will probably only be 50 knots for 30-60 minutes. I'm often out for 4-5 hour sessions on one size kite so being able to still manage during those 50 knot spurts is important for me.

I also strongly feel like the most dangerous aspect of kiting is trying to come in and land an overpowered kite. I'm way happier in open water than on the beach in those winds. So when the wind picks up to gusting 50 instead of going in to land and risking my health I'm still on the water where I feel quite safe.

For this session it ramped up to 35 knot gusts for at least and hour and it was still very manageable on my 6.5m, the graph is sheltered from the true wind and under reports:





I haven't had any 4.5m days since getting my GoPro though. Tomorrow is forecast to be a 4.5m day but I'm off the water due to surgery until the new year :x

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby iriejohn » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:08 pm

Slappysan wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:53 pm
I also strongly feel like the most dangerous aspect of kiting is trying to come in and land an overpowered kite.
Agree with you 100% If I have little trim left and it feels like the wind is going to increase then I come in and land before it becomes problematic. Discretion is the better part of valour.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby evan » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Agree with you 100% If I have little trim left and it feels like the wind is going to increase then I come in and land before it becomes problematic. Discretion is the better part of valour.
Why is coming in overpowered more dangerous compared to starting in overpowered conditions?

When coming in you already have full control of your kite, you already know there is nothing tangled and if you slide out of control you simply hit your QR.
I have ended many sessions in hitting the QR because I became too tired to fight back upwind to the other kiters with a 7m in increasingly nuking 50kn+ conditions. Waving that you need help doesn't often get the attention of others, a flagged out kite does and gives you time to get your breath while waiting for them to grab your kite. (good luck walking up your flagout line in those conditions....)

Lanching is and will be always the most dangerous part. Too many things can slip your attention while setting up your kite and you need to rely on the launcher to do the right things.


Oh, and if your QR doesn't kill the power in your kite in 50kn+ conditions? Find gear that does!

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby Slappysan » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:21 am

evan wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 pm
Why is coming in overpowered more dangerous compared to starting in overpowered conditions?
Usually you don't launch into overpowered conditions because you feel the conditions before you rig.

Once you are out on the water though the wind can pick up putting you in a very dangerous position.

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby iriejohn » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:17 am

evan wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Agree with you 100% If I have little trim left and it feels like the wind is going to increase then I come in and land before it becomes problematic. Discretion is the better part of valour.
Why is coming in overpowered more dangerous compared to starting in overpowered conditions?
I didn't say or imply that^^^, quite the converse as I said earlier in this thread.
iriejohn wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:51 pm
kite_hh wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:40 pm
iriejohn wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:53 am
If I'm launching in sketchy conditions I always tell the person who's launching that (a) I might change my mind and that (b) I might want to immediately land the kite. Really not very complicated.
I am kind of sure you implied that in (a), but just to be sure: I will tell whoever is helping to only let go of the kite once they see an unambiguous sign by me (arm stretched out and thump up). Until two weeks ago I thought this was self-evident..
No, more than that, it means that I warn them that I might decide not to launch at all. Thumb up means I want to launch now, thumb down means I am not going to launch.
hth
Slappysan wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:21 am
evan wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:28 pm
Why is coming in overpowered more dangerous compared to starting in overpowered conditions?
Usually you don't launch into overpowered conditions because you feel the conditions before you rig.

Once you are out on the water though the wind can pick up putting you in a very dangerous position.
+1

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Re: Fatality in France

Postby Toby » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:28 am

But many times it is hard to see a thumb up or down!

Hand on head, being the international signal for landing the kite is clearer.


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