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grigorib wrote: Peak was released 6 years ago. Mini-ribs, A/B/Z bridles, battens, leading edge center string - those came out 8 years ago and are still cool things but these are not recent developments.

The peak 4 was released 2 years ago, it is the kite from that type which has crossed most to water. I think it's L/D improvement over previous Peaks is a big factor for that. Yes technologies have been released many years ago, Psycho4 12 years ago arguably the most advanced kite ever. It is still though a long time till technologies are more refined and better understood and implemented, do you see any Psycho 4 PA change in other kites? I have one but it is a modification... What about 3 bridle rows too? I have one as well, modification again. Flysurfer tried a Pyscho 4 with 3.2 bridle rows, and scrapped the concept after only 2 released sizes and a prototype in another size. I would guess they bit off more than they could chew. Quite amazing though a single small brand could innovate more than the rest of the industry, just proves how useless group think is and what a guru Steve Jobs was.

grigorib wrote: Hybrid cells could have been avoided if guys designed geometry better - Ozone XXLite didn’t need hybrid tips.

Can be avoided for water relaunch? and the Ozone XXlite is a paraglider not a kite for water relaunch. I am not even sure avoiding some hybrid cells will have the best flying character. The hybrid tips to me seems a very elegant solution, typical Flysurfer. For water relaunch the hybrid leading edge, like with the FireFly is the obvious solution. Is it the best? well it works well.

I think a big problem kite companies have is having the right people test their gear. A few of us on here are kiting regular and of quite particular styles. Toby for instance, a brand would be silly to not try get his suggestions. Bars for example is where "me too" think is at it's finest. A brand with just a little intuition could clean out most the industry with a bar that is 1/4 the cost, weight and complexity.... You get what you get when you hire designers and ask help from those who seemingly can't even grasp first principles.

grigorib wrote: Just as in LEIs - development is not revolutionary in foils either

It has been revolutionary, in the past and I think foil kites have had more developments. The obvious path not taken is to combine the two, but the design talent for that is not resident.

foilholio wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:31 am

...

I liked how Flysurfer made those great changes in original Speed4, just to step back next and make Speed4 with Lotus by stencils of Speed3. Mini-cells was probably the major innovation which didn’t appear on original Speed4. Hopefully there will be more improvements like this.

I’d call the reason behind hybrid wingtip cells in Peak4 to be deformed wingtips in previous peaks, while XXLite looked much cleaner.

Flysurfer does great development and product cycle job and hopefully one day we’ll start getting gear we’ve been begging for - simple climbing-grade and compact replacement for chickeloop and hooks, light but strong bars, easily relaunchable single skins, simplified bridles, arrowhead shaped seaweed-proof foil wings, light and simple pocketboards.
And one day some of genius engineers and inventors will again think beyond what we’re asking for, to drive demand for next decade.

Ram Airs will W I N every PRO Kite Board Hydro Foil race this year!
Therefore aerodynamically SUPERIOR, at least in this specific case!
So once again, this and every year,
F U pumpy, FAKE news!
R H

I recently bought a 13m Ozone Chrono V3 Ultralight. I can safely say that it's a complete game changer for light wind kitesurfing... no inflatable LEI I have ever flown gets even remotely close to this for light winds (sub 12mph) in terms of power, lofty jumps and low wind performance.

The problem is that ram air (foil) kite flying characteristics in terms of turning speed, and power delivery dont feel as good as LEI inflatable kites, so most people prefer using LEI kites when not racing or when the wind is above 12mph.

dave1986 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:57 am

I recently bought a 13m Ozone Chrono V3 Ultralight. I can safely say that it's a complete game changer for light wind kitesurfing... no inflatable LEI I have ever flown gets even remotely close to this for light winds (sub 12mph) in terms of power, lofty jumps and low wind performance.

The problem is that ram air (foil) kite flying characteristics in terms of turning speed, and power delivery dont feel as good as LEI inflatable kites, so most people prefer using LEI kites when not racing or when the wind is above 12mph.

totally agree,
and these modern ultralight kites have the amazing ability to stay up there when all around simply fall in the water or just fall back requiring you to keep the kite moving to stay up there
the older foil kites from years back were not great,
however the latest freeride ones under two years old in the newer lighter cloths and shorter better quality bridals are great

True,

But the amount of swimming in, exponentially increases with the number of riding in this conditions.

Happens to everyone.

Look, if there is no snow (wind) in xyz country, no real need to pursue skiing (kiting), as main recreation. Plenty of other options. On the other hand with plenty of cash/dedication, go for it

True that there are plenty of other light wind options available. But Ive had too many beach holidays where the wind has hovered around 10mph all week with few other fun activities available... and so an ultralight fabric foil kite and hydrofoil really is a huge session saver, and great fun too!

It seems that more kiters at my local beach are using foils, particularly the Soul. Last Friday, there were 5 out, 3-8m Souls (on hydrofoils) and 2-12m Souls (on twintips). This was out of about 20 kiters, so about 1/4 were flying foils. I was watching the lineup of kiters boosting in the flat water and the ones on the 12m Souls were boosting as high if not higher than the LEIs with longer hangtime. I wish I had flown my 12m Soul, but was having just as much fun on my old 11m Xbow.

dave1986 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:11 pm

True that there are plenty of other light wind options available. But Ive had too many beach holidays where the wind has hovered around 10mph all week with few other fun activities available... and so an ultralight fabric foil kite and hydrofoil really is a huge session saver, and great fun too!

its when on holiday that you notice how important fair winds are as so much money has been invested in the weeks you have booked away.
windsurfing was the sport that frustrated me the most, mega heavy kit, airport and transfers were never easy, and time on the water was often very little.
twin tipping was a little better, but there were many weeks of not enough wind to get upwind, I felt lucky if my 12mtr kite got used once a week.
you know where this is going-
hydro foiling with foil kites exclusively now, so its more likely I get out every day,
my longest holiday last year was a 5 week break on flag beach, only 2 days not foiling out of 35 days
one month before that long holiday I had 3 weeks on flag beach, and never missed a day.
4 weeks ago I was there for 3 weeks, every day a foiling day.
in 3 weeks I am back for 5 weeks again.
then in september i am booking a nice break of 6 months on flag,
I will be gagging to get on the water every day,
but just might take a few full days off for a break, but then again i might be unlucky and get a few days of bad weather.it can happen.
the best bit about foiling with a foil kite?
1-most definitely the insane boosting, even in very light winds
2- getting out and going fast upwind in hardly any wind when ttips are stood watching on the beach, and me thinking "that used to be me watching"
3- the boosting in high winds, should be illegal.
5 - more fun in the waves than i have had ever had before.
6-non stop foiling, I only stop when I crash,
7 -non stop boosting, I only stop when I crash
8- body dragging out with a foil kite, so much easier,
9- did I mention the boosting?

downunder wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:59 pm

But the amount of swimming in, exponentially increases with the number of riding in this conditions.
Happens to everyone.

Thanks Downunder - you are 100% correct! And you allude to one of major problems with ram airs: swimming-in with a waterlogged ram air kite is a scary, dangerous NIGHTMARE.

Check out these links about ram airs sinking or becoming un-relaunchable:
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2346569
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 90#p608890
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 6&p=617396
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 2&p=704984
eg http://www.foilzone.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8130
e.g.

Hawaiis wrote:One swimming session will ruin your perception of the kite ... the Flysurfer ended up in the water … It was an hour long and 5 hours to sort out the spaghetti.

e.g.

joriws wrote:Well I've always said Chrono is a bad copy of other foil kites. Many probably has tried it and did a conclusion that foils kites ball up in the sky and are hard/unsafe to launch, requires high line maintenance and cannot water launch.

e.g [youtube][/youtube]