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Is strapless overrated?

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Jan:) » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:21 am

Repeating the same points over and over without valuing other peoples opinions does not make them facts.
It just makes the people you argue with tired at some point ;-)
Matteo V wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:17 am
Evidence for performance:
1. Going faster is quantifiable in measured speed for which strapped absolutely beats strapless
2. Handling chop better is quantifiable with how far and at what top speed you can enter, and continue through chop - Do you actually think you can handle chop better, at a higher speed while strapless on the same board?
3. Aerial maneuvers strapped can be done "on the fly" and changed mid execution while strapped by almost any level of kiter attempting those maneuvers, whereas the same or similar maneuvers strapless must be pre-planned and cannot be changed mid execution by almost any skill level.

Go ahead and try to debunk the above 3 pieces of evidence that strapped allows more performance. If you think anyone of the above is just an opinion, tell us why you think so and present your evidence.
When people talk about "performance" of a surfboard, they usually refer to performance in actually surfing waves.
If those points help you surfing, then yes for you it is more performance.
These points do not help me surfing, so for me it is not.

Simple as that.
Its not fact it is opinion.
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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby tautologies » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:35 am

Matteo V wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:25 pm
I'm always up for trying a replacement for the kitefish.
You cannot possibly be talking about performance and speed etc and then mention you ride the kitefish. I had one. It's not a surfboard...not even close. Its much closer to a skimboard. I'm not slagging your board, but I am saying as a board it isn't close to the debate we're having here. Also talking about speed or jumping as a metric for performance is just not right....though I think the results for great kiters are closer than you think.

Personally, I ride both strapped and unstrapped bur for different reasons in different conditions.
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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Seabizzle » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:59 am

[
Evidence for performance:
1. Going faster is quantifiable in measured speed for which strapped absolutely beats strapless
2. Handling chop better is quantifiable with how far and at what top speed you can enter, and continue through chop - Do you actually think you can handle chop better, at a higher speed while strapless on the same board?
3. Aerial maneuvers strapped can be done "on the fly" and changed mid execution while strapped by almost any level of kiter attempting those maneuvers, whereas the same or similar maneuvers strapless must be pre-planned and cannot be changed mid execution by almost any skill level.

Go ahead and try to debunk the above 3 pieces of evidence that strapped allows more performance. If you think anyone of the above is just an opinion, tell us why you think so and present your evidence.
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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby jumptheshark » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:19 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:17 am
First off, thanks jumpy for not avoiding the direct challenge. And so......



Evidence for performance:
1. Going faster is quantifiable in measured speed for which strapped absolutely beats strapless
2. Handling chop better is quantifiable with how far and at what top speed you can enter, and continue through chop - Do you actually think you can handle chop better, at a higher speed while strapless on the same board?
3. Aerial maneuvers strapped can be done "on the fly" and changed mid execution while strapped by almost any level of kiter attempting those maneuvers, whereas the same or similar maneuvers strapless must be pre-planned and cannot be changed mid execution by almost any skill level.

Go ahead and try to debunk the above 3 pieces of evidence that strapped allows more performance. If you think anyone of the above is just an opinion, tell us why you think so and present your evidence.
Going faster is not a measure of performance for me in this context. It is not a race, I cruise around out there at very modest speeds on any of the types of boards I ride.

Chop is what I avoid most on a surfboard. I am looking to be in a different place than you. When it must be crossed, I'm happy to do it comfortably, not fast. With the board in trim by balance, not pressuring one strap up and the other down essentially fighting my gear.

From the beach I'm sure the guy who goes the highest is considered the coolest. I have done many simple boosts with the board attached over the years. It turns out that the synergy of going half as high with less hang from the kite so as to maintain the contact with a super light board being held on my feet by simply angling it to the wind, and maintaining that angle throughout whatever orientation I actually have to the wind and wave upon which I land results in a greater release of serotonin in my brain and encodes memory to greater effect. Those moments are the ones that I relive many times over, not the fastest ones, or the highest ones and definitely not the choppiest ones.

You present your principles as incontrovertible yet they are not even compatible with the parameters of performance I value. You state them over and over with authority......... Dogma

To muscle a board even if instantaneous is not to balance forces efficiently. A perfectly placed shift or step can always produce a cleaner more powerful movement. Ask a boxer, force is not the same as power, and levering an edge from the wrong spot on a board does not produce the same result as pushing directly through the rail with your foot in the right spot. For the majority is seems the joy does not come from simply pulling up on the board, it's not about manipulating it, but actually riding it using a far more complex and difficult balance of force. Perhaps that aspect of performance is lost on you.

It's not jeans vs khakis. When doing any activity in any environment there is always a way to bash your way through, and there is a much more difficult way to ease your way through while making it look easy... To me its the latter that is the true performance.

You stick with your strapped LF fish and personal dogma on what is or isn't performance.

I leave you to your rabbit hole.
Last edited by jumptheshark on Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Surfkiternew » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:25 am

Seabizzle wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:59 am
[
Evidence for performance:
1. Going faster is quantifiable in measured speed for which strapped absolutely beats strapless
2. Handling chop better is quantifiable with how far and at what top speed you can enter, and continue through chop - Do you actually think you can handle chop better, at a higher speed while strapless on the same board?
3. Aerial maneuvers strapped can be done "on the fly" and changed mid execution while strapped by almost any level of kiter attempting those maneuvers, whereas the same or similar maneuvers strapless must be pre-planned and cannot be changed mid execution by almost any skill level.

Go ahead and try to debunk the above 3 pieces of evidence that strapped allows more performance. If you think anyone of the above is just an opinion, tell us why you think so and present your evidence.
Its all True ..the 3 point are so True and if u want improve bit more i suggest to use a good twintip to go faster higher and better aerial maneuvers...
Strapless surf its different choice thats why most of people have 2 board in car ,twintip and surf..but if u like to mix no problem enjoy...
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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Megabear » Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Seabizzle wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:51 am
I have seen a few posts and articles like this ( referring to the original post) where it seems like the author is a little butt hurt because they feel like they are ripping but because they ride strapped they don't get the recognition they feel they deserve.
The essence of this whole thread.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Matteo V » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:08 pm

tautologies wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:35 am
You cannot possibly be talking about performance and speed etc and then mention you ride the kitefish. I had one. It's not a surfboard...not even close. Its much closer to a skimboard.
I very much am talking about the performance of the KiteFish, though not upon initial usage or a year of occasional usage. This board took time, but I pushed it past the limitations of all of the other "real surfboards" I have ever used. From your above statement, I can guarantee you never had adequate time on this board, or you weigh less than 90kg. I also would not have had adequate time on this board, had I not wrecked my "real surfboards". For me, most of the revelation of the KF's capabilities (at least at my weight) came after I was forced to use it regardless of initially not liking it, strapped and strapless. As for it being a skimboard or being better to use a TT..... no way, not for maximizing the entire possible performance envelope in the waves with a rear foot position over the tail and true surfboard bite from significant fins. Some boards will do some things better or be lighter, but none can do it all at my weight like the Kitefish. And I am very much still open to finding a better platform, and actively looking. Nothing has come up yet, even with some mods of other boards. Though I have not committed to building my own, yet. Twin tips are great and I did like them at one point in time, but that is definitely a "feel thing" though it is undeniable that they do many things to a much higher degree of performance than directionals.

As far as the board being more like a skim???? No, it is nothing like a skim. When I was still kiting and throwing high end skimboards (S-glass - never did carbon, too delicate for my approach) properly sized for my weight, the KiteFish board gave none of the skimboard type performance I got out of even a kitespecific skimboard. This is where I am sure you did not spend enough time on the board. No one comparing the KiteFish directly to a purpose built "real" skimboard would feel any similarities. The rail shape of the Kitefish is completely different from a skimboard, as well as the bottom shape. I also owned the LF TwinSkim. That board was actually close to a skimboard in most areas, though it was too small for me to use as a skimboard without a kite. The real test of if a board is "skimboard like" is if you can throw & ride it (without a kite) the same way as can with an actual skimboard on a thing film of water. In this application, the KiteFish does not work well for lighter riders, and does not work at all for my 100kg. It actually just vacuums to the bottom in the tail because of the "V" in the back and the lack of hard rails all around.

But this board is definitely not a corky surfboard. In fact, most surfboards now feel corky to me, especially bigger ones like the AirRush "Sector" series, strapped or strapless. But my idea that strapless was "better" was cured back when I was still riding those supposedly "real surfboards". So the LF Kitefish came into my riding much later and I really only came to a few conclusions with it as far as what I still had wrong about kitesurfing.

With the reality of strapless not yielding more performance having already set in, the KiteFish taught me:
1. Durability (at my body weight) is an extremely important factor in having fun and being able to ride anywhere on a directional board.
2. Weight may limit jumping, but it helps at high speeds through chop, and is not a significant factor when you consider it as a proportion of the riders weight, if that rider is heavy.
3. A snappy board like the 2012 North whip is extremely fun, but pushing a less responsive quad finned board (KiteFish is definitely less responsive) can be done with more physical effort on the front side (initiation), with less on the back side (recovery) - evening things out as far as the amount of work you put into the board.

So for those who say I have no credibility because I am riding this directional board, I disagree with that idea, based upon my background.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby cor » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:36 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:17 am
Evidence for performance:
1. Going faster is quantifiable in measured speed for which strapped absolutely beats strapless
And there I was, thinking that riding a surfboard was actually about having fun in the waves. But apparently for some people it's about who is the fastest on the water just like with HF races and who jumps the highest :-? well ok then.
Megabear wrote:
Seabizzle wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:51 am
I have seen a few posts and articles like this ( referring to the original post) where it seems like the author is a little butt hurt because they feel like they are ripping but because they ride strapped they don't get the recognition they feel they deserve.
The essence of this whole thread.
Yep. Pretty much.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Matteo V » Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:41 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:19 am
Matteo V wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:17 am
First off, thanks jumpy for not avoiding the direct challenge. And so......



Evidence for performance:
1. Going faster is quantifiable in measured speed for which strapped absolutely beats strapless
2. Handling chop better is quantifiable with how far and at what top speed you can enter, and continue through chop - Do you actually think you can handle chop better, at a higher speed while strapless on the same board?
3. Aerial maneuvers strapped can be done "on the fly" and changed mid execution while strapped by almost any level of kiter attempting those maneuvers, whereas the same or similar maneuvers strapless must be pre-planned and cannot be changed mid execution by almost any skill level.

Go ahead and try to debunk the above 3 pieces of evidence that strapped allows more performance. If you think anyone of the above is just an opinion, tell us why you think so and present your evidence.
Going faster is not a measure of performance for me in this context.
Thanks for answering, and let me put your response up with your previous post.

jumptheshark wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:41 pm
Your opinion of what is and isn't performance is not evidence. It's opinion. You state it as fact, when its far from it........ Dogma.....

You dispute the numbers? I assure you they stand up.....
So you prompted me to present evidence. Then I did - which you did not refute but....now you are dodging the quantifiable evidence saying that it is not evidence as far as you are concerned. Saying "Well, I don't care about that" is not a way to refute the evidence. It is more akin to changing the argument. And if you are changing the argument to "well this is how I see it, though I can give you no quantifiable evidence"......then would you not just go back to the beginning of the argument and say "well, everything is opinion, even if you can measure it to have a higher ultimate numerical value or a wider envelope of performance"? If that is your logic, then nothing would be better than anything. Planes would not be faster than cars, adults would not be older than children, and blue light would be the same wavelength as red light.??????? Sorry for the obscure reference, but you did invite me to do the "rabbit hole" thing.




jumptheshark wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:19 am
You present your principles as incontrovertible yet they are not even compatible with the parameters of performance I value. You state them over and over with authority......... Dogma
Once again, 'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means'. And for that you get 2 very rare things from me - a Google definition, and a nice picture. These two things are more rare than an "emoji" from me.

dog·ma - a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

If it were dogma by this definition, there would be no presentation of evidence/logic and reason put up for challenge. I have repeatedly put up that evidence to be refuted by others with contrary actual quantifiable evidence. The only argument I have received in turn is "well I just like it this way" and "These things just are".
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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Jan:) » Mon Feb 25, 2019 5:58 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:41 pm
So you prompted me to present evidence. Then I did - which you did not refute but....now you are dodging the quantifiable evidence saying that it is not evidence as far as you are concerned. Saying "Well, I don't care about that" is not a way to refute the evidence. It is more akin to changing the argument. And if you are changing the argument to "well this is how I see it, though I can give you no quantifiable evidence"......then would you not just go back to the beginning of the argument and say "well, everything is opinion, even if you can measure it to have a higher ultimate numerical value or a wider envelope of performance"? If that is your logic, then nothing would be better than anything. Planes would not be faster than cars, adults would not be older than children, and blue light would be the same wavelength as red light.??????? Sorry for the obscure reference, but you did invite me to do the "rabbit hole" thing.

Image Image

You just don't get it.
Of these two which one is "more performance"?

Yeah right, it depends on what you want to do.
The same applies for using a surfboard while kitesurfing.

All the people I kite with, do not care how high their maximum speed is on a surfboard.
So in that case, higher top speed is a meaningless attribute, just like color.
It does not in any way relate to the performance of the board.

For you it might be different - that is ok with me.
You should just realize, it is simply your personal view, not fact.


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