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Is strapless overrated?

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Toby » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:11 pm

Peter doesn’t need to fine adjust anymore...he found his stance 😉

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby jonysan » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:13 pm

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I'll meet you there.

Rumi, Sufi Poet.
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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby jumptheshark » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:15 pm

Peter,
You just called your opinion smart and others a slave to their ego.

Then called on people to stop dissing the other.



Riding around on boards is super fun. Some want a floater to feel like a floater, some don't do floaters. Some wanna boost over whitewash, others don't.

No one is smarter for their choices when it comes to how they choose to ride.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby PullStrings » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:56 pm

mikelet wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:34 pm
Enjoy
Image
Image
Nice quiver !!
Those are my 3 boards ( Google pictures / mine of course each have "2" North flexzone straps :wink: )
I find that my ideal front straps position of the "center of foot" on all of them to be just about 4 inches forward of board center at my almost 6ft height
Taller rider will need to go 5 inches where as if you are shorter go to 3 inches...even down to 2 inches if real short

1- 5'9" x 16.87 x 1.75
2- 5'5" x 18.5 x 2.12
3- 5'2' x 21 x 2.37

BTW Hello Peter Frank i liked your post....yes to sum it up it is overrated for riding waves while pushing water onto a plane !!
I remember how good you are at those forward 540 kite downloop to toeside transition...great fun move that i also enjoy a lot
But my fave is the high tweaked table top ( Robby Naish style) kite downloop to toeside...because it cannot be done strapless !!

Image

Image

Image

:cheers: :cheers:
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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby adamj2281 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:47 am

I'll throw my two cents in here - I've been kiting for 11 years now, 6 of which I probably only rode a twintip mostly. I started on a strapped surfboard like most people moving over to riding a directional. Here are my observations:

I think the advantages/disadvantages are pretty well described throughout the post, and I agree with most of them with the exception that getting upwind is definitely easier strapless. Like most things - this argument has no winner, it's based in personal preference and also, conditions. For me, I ride strapless 90% of the time, and the other 10% I'm on a twintip. Why? I'll break it down by conditions/preference:

Big waves (for us that would be chest to head or so)/strong wind:
Here is the one time I'd maybe think about strapped surfboard, but when I've tried it, I'm not a fan because I can't gybe as quick as I would like if things become critical.

Any light wind:
Strapless - upwind ability

Flat/really windy:
Twintip, kinda self explanatory

Small waves/normal wind (usual conditions):
This is where I could maybe go to a strapped surfboard some, as I still like to boost, front/back rolls, etc. I'm pretty much beyond the point that I'm doing much unhooked. Instead, I pretty much use the best tool for what I feel like doing. Freestyle - I grab my twintip, just because it's better suited for it. Want to surf a bit, I grab my surfboard. I keep both on the beach and swap out.

Long story short - I see both sides, and obviously there's no right or wrong. I used to think that kiters that had a strong surfing background preferred strapless, but at least at my home location, it's a bit of both.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:00 pm

About the "upwind" opinions, that sometimes differ in "odd" ways, my view:

Some ride a lot more powered strapped, thus goes a lot better upwind.
Some ride wider and/or more straight/square boards when strapless, thus goes a lot better upwind.
A few beginners ride "wrongly" with rear foot in the strap upwind, thus they go lousy windward.
Some can control their board better in the typical outside windchop, being in the frontstrap and leaning on the rear strap, thus goes better upwind.

These are the most typical differences I have seen.

But IMO there is absolutely no difference in upwind whether you are strapped or strapless :rollgrin:
WHEN riding the same board and wind that is.

Your center of gravity will be in exactly the same spot on both boards, you can stand in a really wide stance strapless if you want, but it is not better upwind, just a personal taste.
Others like to stand narrow when going upwind, which could help upwind but possible on both styles.

Doesnt matter if strapped or strapless, you can stand with your front foot angled and close to the edge of the board on both, in a good open stance helping upwind, which I think many of us prefer, instead of centered.

I think it is more personal likings, AND because apples and bananas are often compared, without really knowing, that we get these differing views :naughty:

8) Peter

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby purdyd » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:28 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:00 pm


Some ride a lot more powered strapped, thus goes a lot better upwind.
Some ride wider and/or more straight/square boards when strapless, thus goes a lot better upwind.
A few beginners ride "wrongly" with rear foot in the strap upwind, thus they go lousy windward.
Some can control their board better in the typical outside windchop, being in the frontstrap and leaning on the rear strap, thus goes better upwind.

See I find this interesting that there are so many views on this.

The only way for me to go up wind on my boards is to plane.

If I can plane, I can ride in the straps.

If I need to flatten the board, I can put more weight on the front foot moving the center of gravity forward.

But I also ride in the same spot strapless, same board. In fact that’s how I figured where to put the straps, ride it strapless first.

The only time it would make sense to me to move the back foot forward is if the board had enough volume to be ridden as a displacement hull. Thus back to the good old days of windsurfing. Or maybe a big surfboard.

I spent two years strapless before putting straps on and I was amazed how much it helped my low end. I believe because I could transfer more energy into the board. I think that stems from my windsurfing background where you learn a lot of tricks to get up and stay on plane by pumping the sail and board.

Perhaps another factor is I ride a little smaller board in length, usually one size down and a change in weight forward and back has a larger impact. In fact if you’ve ridden one of the Tomo boards they are really sensitive especially to getting too much weight forward.

Anyway, all good to learn about the differences in the way people ride.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby longwhitecloud » Thu Mar 07, 2019 12:55 am

"if you’ve ridden one of the Tomo boards they are really sensitive especially to getting too much weight forward"

that is because there is so much nose in the way of the waves curve

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:40 am

This is a good, long, and in-depth discussion. Many individual riding style issues have been brought to light, and Peter_Frank has brought up a good one for a new thread. However, a correction with more information here is warranted.
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:00 pm
About the "upwind" opinions, that sometimes differ in "odd" ways, my view:

Some ride a lot more powered strapped, thus goes a lot better upwind......
Increased upwind capability is wrongly directly attributed to being strapped. The real reason that a strapped rider can go upwind better is that a strapped rider can carry more speed through chop, exit landings from chop hops/boosting to get over an incoming wave with more speed, and can sideload the fins (in the case of a quad finned board only - not with a fin system with a significant center fin). More speed translates to more lift (horizontal push from the foil section of the fins), which in turn makes the board point higher and go faster more efficiently. More starting/ultimate speed also allows the use of a smaller kite since speed can be built with loops (down or up) or sining the kite more aggressively/effectively with straps. Smaller kites at higher speeds, especially when pointing higher, are generally accepted as having less "upwind robbing drag".

Thus a rider skilled in strapped AND strapless in overpowered conditions, underpowered conditions, and gusty conditions, will find that strapped goes upwind better in all cases. But this IS NOT due to just being able to handle a bigger kite - it has to do with higher speeds being allowed while riding strapped.



Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:00 pm
A few beginners ride "wrongly" with rear foot in the strap upwind, thus they go lousy windward.
On a quad finned board under 6'-0", there is no need to take your foot out of the strap to increase upwind capabilities. Doing so actually handicap's your upwind potential - again only on quad finned boards. Given the differences in how significant-center fin boards (thruster or tri, and even 5 fin) respond to input, and how NON-significant-center finned boards (twin, twinzers, bonzers, quad, and 6 fin) respond to input, a different approach is required for each. The short of it is that ALL of the NON-significant-center finned boards/fin systems I have used and experimented with, respond with more push back from sideloading as pressure increases and then speed increases, where you get a continuous loop up until you reach the ultimate speed capable for the system.

The confusion that most strapped riders have about pulling their back foot out of the strap and placing it in front of the back strap, is a product of kitesurfers using primarily tri-finned boards. On a tri-finned board (and actually on any board with a significant center fin), the fin system is easy to "release" or "spin out". The short of it is that when you put sideways pressure on your back foot on a thruster, you loose stable flow of water over the fins. Thus tri-finned boards are ridden with a more "over the board" stance, and hiking out with sideways pressure is avoided or not even possible when trying to hold an upwind course. Therefore kiters remove the back foot from the strap because - with the fulcrum being the front foot, the "load" being the fins, and the back foot being the "effort", moving the effort closer to the fulcrum decreases the force that can be applied at the point of "effort". This means that a kiter can actually reduce the likelihood of spinning out the fins on an upwind tack. However, this is not needed with a skilled rider sensitive to their fin set, who is also capable of fully utilizing the straps to shift weight via uplift. At a high degree of skill and feel for a particular fin set, the kiter can also use a moment "twisting the foot" in the foot strap to produce the same or even a more effective way to prevent spinout.




Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:00 pm
But IMO there is absolutely no difference in upwind whether you are strapped or strapless :rollgrin:
WHEN riding the same board and wind that is.......

I think it is more personal likings, AND because apples and bananas are often compared, without really knowing, that we get these differing views......
I agree with your statement that there is no difference in upwind strapped or strapless at the same speed. But giving the higher speeds attainable in all conditions with straps, the better statement would be that upwind performance is better with straps because of the higher speeds that straps allow.

As far as being "personal liking", I would disagree. Many "strapless only" riders do not know how to use straps to even basic level of capability. Many have commented here that they feel as though straps only allow them to put downward pressure at the strap location only. If those strapless adherents would learn how to lift up, pry up, and twist inside of those straps, they would realize the full potential of straps. So it is more of a personal choice that led down a path to which they are not willing to backtrack from to see the other side. And this is why I am a proponent of learning the strapped jibe first, and then moving on to strapless. Doing so gives the rider capabilities in both usages of a surfboard, and stops them from being trapped in one.

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Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby knotwindy » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:32 am

Lots of opinions so here’s mine. I don’t design or build boards or really know how they work. I only know what I feel when I ride. On long boards(like 9 ft) I have to move my feet to get the board to trim out. My guess is that on a 3 ft board I couldn’t move my feet or things would get out of trim. In between on a short board, with or without straps, I move my feet a small amount. The front foot twists but doesn’t really change its spot on the deck. On a wave the rear foot moves back and center, then forward again, different on bottom turn & top turn and kind of top turn changes it as well. On toeside upwind it moves forward and across the board to the toe edge, on upwind heelside it moves forward and slightly to heel edge. Strap or no strap.
Yes, with straps I can just shift my weight forward in the straps but for any length of time it is more comfortable to move the back foot forward and be more balanced and relaxed.
There is also more than one way to ride straps, not all the same. You can ride them tight and slam around like a hooligan or leave them loose and only use them as a slight aid in the chop and when boosting. Not that different than strapless most of the time. Just what I’ve noticed after riding for years.

However, relative to the original topic of strapless being overrated, years ago there was an old joke:
What’s the difference between a strapless kiter and god?

God doesn’t think he’s a strapless kiter.


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