Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Is strapless overrated?

Forum for kitesurfers
User avatar
Toby
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 40032
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: Cumbuco, Brazil
Barra do Cauipe, Brazil
Favorite Beaches: same
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Rebel 2015 18
Brand Affiliation: None.
Location: World (KF Admin)
Has thanked: 217 times
Been thanked: 371 times
Contact:

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Toby » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:57 pm

I watched the GKA livestream a little bit yesterday.

Very nice riding from the guys.

I wonder how a strapped rider would have performed at the same time.

What differences could one expect ?

PullStrings
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1536
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:54 pm
Gear: LEI's & Surfboards
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby PullStrings » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:01 am

Toby wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:57 pm
What differences could one expect ?
Carry a bigger kite
Be more aggressive
Take more risks
Give a better show
Crank upwind faster
Catch more waves
Get higher jumps
Hit lip harder

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3092
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Style: Online kiteboard commenting, Fortnite.
Gear: World Sailing kite KOOKs. By kiters for kiters. #kitekooks
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby longwhitecloud » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:43 am

jayzuz.. they got REALLY good waves.. some of the best of any event in kiting ever i would say.

You are not going to see any of those guys with straps.. they know how kooky the Sailing? rules are for even allowing them, they have reputations to keep apart from the abysmal prize money on offer for their skills.

surfing and kiting can be similar but the stars really need to line up, usually it is a case of take what is on offer


someone could do a strapped comp if they wanted to would have a very different dynamic, but mixed together... rediculous

User avatar
Toby
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 40032
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 1:00 am
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: Cumbuco, Brazil
Barra do Cauipe, Brazil
Favorite Beaches: same
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Rebel 2015 18
Brand Affiliation: None.
Location: World (KF Admin)
Has thanked: 217 times
Been thanked: 371 times
Contact:

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Toby » Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:49 am

I think the first wave tour allowed both.

Gotta love free ride 😁

User avatar
bragnouff
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 826
Joined: Tue May 14, 2002 1:00 am
Local Beach: New Brighton
Gear: Alkita boards
Zeeko Slash/AirWave/Scrambler
Spitfire XLW/ XXLW. GoFoil Kai
GK Trix
FS Peak4
...
Brand Affiliation: GK enthusiast
Location: Te Wai Pounamu
Has thanked: 16 times
Been thanked: 50 times
Contact:

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby bragnouff » Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:19 am

As long as the judging criteria on those events is the same as in surfing, then you'll see riders performing (or trying to) like WSL surfers. And why wouldn't they?, I mean, on those world class waves of the GKA tour, it's as pure surfing as it gets, and it's awesome.
On different conditions, maybe less perfect, with various sections to hit, you might see a different kind of show, maybe benefiting strapped riders, more speed and power, a totally different game.

When you see windsurfing's Aloha Classic, with crazy air moves on the wave, windsurfers don't think twice about parting away from pure surfing, and they embrace their differences, and their incredible own potential.

kitesurfing seems to be a bit insecure in its identity, having to earn legitimacy from other sports, like wakeboarding, surfing, sailing... Whereas it's nothing like those sports, it's kind of all of them at once, it can be whatever you want it to be! No directions! Strapless or strapped? Whatever works for you, and for the conditions. The winner is the one with the biggest grin!
These users thanked the author bragnouff for the post:
Toby (Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:52 pm)
Rating: 10%

TommyDuotone
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 854
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 5:34 pm
Favorite Beaches: IB, Rauls, 38's, Gavs
Style: surf
Gear: North, Ocean Rodeo, Liquid Force,
Firewire
Location: Imperial Beach
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby TommyDuotone » Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:08 am

Here's a clip of more overrated strapless riding with a 4-cylinder.........
https://www.thekiteboarder.com/2018/07/ ... goes-huge/

TangTonic
Rare Poster
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:55 am
Local Beach: St. Croix
Style: all
Gear: Wainman

Shinn
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby TangTonic » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 pm

I wonder how many people who are in the strapped crowd surf. I mean paddle into a wave and actually surf it (I refuse to use the word prone). If you are intermediate or above surfer, its a natural tendency to want to do this same activity when the waves get blown out. This is where the kite comes in.

A few of the people in the strapped crowd have mentioned their windsurfing experience. This makes total sense. If you are or were a windsurfer, you can take those tactics used in windsurfing and apply them with a kite.

When it comes down to it though, as has been said multiple times in this thread, strapless is a feeling of freedom, grace, and balance. It is a way to take wave riding which has been around for eons, and do it in conditions that are considered poor for regular surfing.

To say that strapless riding is a limitation because you are mimicking surfing is incorrect. In fact, it is an enhancement to surfing because you are catching more waves and not limited to only going out when wave conditions allow.

If you want straps and you want to fast and power through chop and bash lips super hard go for it. That is not what strapless riders are trying to achieve. We are trying to link sections, flow with the wave, use the wind when needed to get around closeouts.

Do what you want. But realize why people are going strapless. And if you don't surf, you will probably never understand.

Lifelong 20+ year surfer and 10+ year kiter out.
These users thanked the author TangTonic for the post (total 4):
jumptheshark (Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:31 pm) • knotwindy (Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:20 am) • chibern (Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:01 am) • TBBUK (Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:55 am)
Rating: 40%

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1662
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Matteo V » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:31 pm

TangTonic wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 pm
I wonder how many people who are in the strapped crowd surf. I mean paddle into a wave and actually surf it (I refuse to use the word prone). If you are intermediate or above surfer, its a natural tendency to want to do this same activity when the waves get blown out. This is where the kite comes in.

A few of the people in the strapped crowd have mentioned their windsurfing experience. This makes total sense. If you are or were a windsurfer, you can take those tactics used in windsurfing and apply them with a kite.
You never have to use words here that make you feel uncomfortable. No one will give you any grief if you make up a code word for the word you do not like. So I will try to refrain from using the word "prone" as much as possible.

Over all the water/snow/wind/motor sports I have done, I have always focused on the different things each one allows to be accomplished, instead of how I can make each one simulate the other. And your comment here has helped me realize this. THANKS!

Wake surfing is not (I will use your preferred word) "actually" surfing, It is something completely different and there are things you can do wake-surfing that you could never do "actually" surfing. And in both, I never try to make one into the other.

As far as windsurfing - I am racking my brain to think of anything I can do windsurfing that I cannot do surfing or kitesurfing, even if I would desperately try to simulate them with windsurfing. Yes, you do lay down the sail on jibes, but everything I can think of with a windsurfing sail is pretty much to get the sail out of the way or a very precarious way to turn that sail into a kite (jumping with lift/hangtime). However, I must confess my bias since I like watching windsurfing much more than prone surfing or kitesurfing....sorry for the word slip. And honestly, despite my skill level of "actually" surfing and kitesurfing where I can perform many maneuvers that the majority of other sesoned surfers or kiters cant (though many of them can do things I can't too), I know I am no where good enough to go out in big waves with a windsurfer to survive, let alone pull off some of the amazing stuff pro-windsurfers do. Windsurfing waves is pretty much the ultimate in skill, though waaaaayyyyyyyy too hard for me to consider going back to after the easy experience of kiting in the waves. So, again, there is my personal bias. But I have never gone out, not once, to simulate windsurfing with a prone surfboard or a kitesurfboard. I would love some feed back on this if I am missing something that I can do windsurfing that I should try to do kitesurfing.

TangTonic wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 pm
When it comes down to it though, as has been said multiple times in this thread, strapless is a feeling of freedom, grace, and balance. It is a way to take wave riding which has been around for eons, and do it in conditions that are considered poor for regular surfing.

To say that strapless riding is a limitation because you are mimicking surfing is incorrect. In fact, it is an enhancement to surfing because you are catching more waves and not limited to only going out when wave conditions allow.
The last statement is pretty much admission that you are not "actually" surfing if they are not "real" waves. I do not necessarily subscribe to this, though.

And, freedom, grace, and balance? I absolutely agree. I could not agree more. However, I need to add a word to it that you may not like, so feel free to use another word in it's place. And that word would be "dainty". For a few years while doing strapless, I refused to use that word too because it does not evoke an image of "powerful", "rollercoaster", "high G-force" or "pushing the limits". That "d" word makes you think "delicate", "reserved", and "limited". But that is NOT how I viewed my prone surfing experience when going into kitesurfing. I view prone surfing, and still do, as power of the wave, with no force in the air to lift you off the board other than what comes up from that board. Just your weight engaged in a cut that increases your weighted feeling of speed and power. It was not until I had become more than competent at all 3 of the below when I stepped back and examined the reality of each.

"Actual" (prone) surfing is limited:
1. the wave size and shape that you have to first propel yourself onto (get up on the wave with hand power) from the ideal location and timing when it starts to get steep
2. The minimum size of a board has to have enough surface area to get you moving and keep you moving fast (too small of a board makes you sink)
3. A wave that has enough energy to keep you going and allow you to gain speed from it (with a proper sized board), to which you are limited to that energy (and some pumping) only.
4. Using only the wave provided speed to carve the wave (bottom turn, smack the lip, repeat, with a possibility of advanced-pro level doing a single jump or rotation


Kitesurfing strapless allows beyond this:
1. Access to any size or shape of wave with no size/volume requirements on the board
2. High speed (range of slow or fast) of entry to the wave face, with the possibility of getting into the pocket from behind the wave that has already peaked up
3. The ability to use a board too small (short, narrow, or no volume) to ever prone surf, thus allowing surfing in a manner that cannot be done when getting on a wave from a prone paddling position without a kite
4. Repositioning on or off that face while the wave is forming or crumbling, and then re-engaging that wave face from a location that is not possible to come back from in prone surfing


Kitesurfing STRAPPED allows even further beyond this:
1. Access to any size or shape of wave with no size/volume requirements on the board
2. Nearly unlimited speed (range of slow or fast) of entry to the wave face, with the possibility of getting into the pocket from behind the wave that has already peaked up
3. The ability to use a board too small (short, narrow, or no volume) to ever prone surf, thus allowing surfing in a manner that cannot be done when getting on a wave from a prone paddling position without a kite, AND not having to move your feet to pressure either rail, or the nose/tail for quicker and more powerfull turns and entries.
4. Repositioning on or off that face while the wave is forming or crumbling, and then re-engaging that wave face from a location that is not possible to come back from in prone surfing, and the ability to retain the board in a bad closeout/wipeout and get back get back to riding immediately, catching more waves than strapless (just like strapless kitesurfing catches more waves than prone surfing).
5. Aerial engagement, re-engagement, rotations, and redirect's are possible with strapped without any pre-planning, and can be changed while in the air.


Laying out all 3 descriptions in this manner shows the limitations that strapless is hanging onto for absolutely no other purpose, save trying to simulate prone surfing to at least some degree. If you disagree, then give the reason why strapless is more capable of a wider range of than prone surfing, AND strapped is capable of a wider range than strapless, but strapless riders stop short of utilizing those additional capabilities. Simulation of prone surfing is the only thing that fits. This is especially true when you consider that strapless riders admit that the above advantages of strapless over prone surfing exists, but no more advancement beyond just using a kite is considered "actually" surfing. Kind of like the Amish that decided any development of advantageous technology beyond what was available in the late 1800's was blasphemous.

But moreover, observe the reaction of a group of strapless riders and coming down to the beach and seeing a kitesurfer really shredding the waves. I have seen this exact situation many times. The strapless group will make comments that that rider is "really good" or "is pulling off sick tricks". Then they will witness that kitesurfer pull of a rotation with obvious centripetal acceleration acting on the board, which exposes that rider as using straps. Then they will comment that "he's using straps" and thus the riding witnessed is now nothing special. This definitely exposes the reality that there is more skill required to deal with the handicap of being strapless, than there is with being strapped. So what does that group of strapless riders actually value? The handicap! And what is the only reason to accept that handicap? To simulate prone surfing.


TangTonic wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 pm
If you want straps and you want to fast and power through chop and bash lips super hard go for it. That is not what strapless riders are trying to achieve. We are trying to link sections, flow with the wave, use the wind when needed to get around closeouts.

Do what you want. But realize why people are going strapless. And if you don't surf, you will probably never understand.
"If you want straps and you want to fast and power through chop and bash lips super hard" > the list is way longer than this. You can add:
1. Ride more waves since speed and retaining your board gives you more time actually riding the waves
2. Jump off of, onto, over, then reengage without having to pre-plan or depower the kite to a degree that limits your ride
3. Float with the board without having to reach down and grab the board, or having to put it back into position
4. Pressure the board in a quick (or slow if you chose) manner that the restriction to downward pressure only, in strapless, does not allow
5. Utilize body mechanics with a moment applied to the board via the feet in the straps

And the list goes on.




TangTonic wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 pm
I wonder how many people who are in the strapped crowd surf. I mean paddle into a wave and actually surf it (I refuse to use the word prone). If you are intermediate or above surfer, its a natural tendency to want to do this same activity when the waves get blown out....

......Do what you want. But realize why people are going strapless. And if you don't surf, you will probably never understand.
My path from "actual" prone surfing to strapless kitesurfing, and then to strapped was because I looked hard at all 3 after having done them. When I went from prone surfing to strapless (after a stint of learning strapped with the intent of never using straps again), I saw that strapless kitesurfing was an advantage over prone surfing. But upon further examination, I found that strapped was also an advantage over strapless. So why would I want to stop.....limit myself to only some advantage over prone surfing allowing a wider range of board sizes and wave sizes with strapless kitesurfing. The natural progression of increasing capabilities inside of kitesports beyond that seemed to be too obvious a path for a adrenaline junkie like me to pass up. Especially since the "dainty" feeling of strapless vs the powerful feeling of strapped, was not making me more happy beyond what the hype I had bought into about strapless had set up in my mind.

And sorry for the "Freudian" slips of "prone" in this response. It is what it is. And you can thank SUP for making that a thing.

User avatar
omg
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:58 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby omg » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:51 pm

Oh geez :)

I do strapless because it offers me much more challenge than the strapped. Strapless freestyle rotations etc. are a real challenge but with straps everyone can do them, no challenge at all. Overall, jumping with straps on directional looks ugly due to size of the board as the board looks like it’s not balanced on feet, why not go with tt if you want to jump? In the waves straps might have some edge for certain people but for me none and it seems the situation is the same for most people who ride strapless. They would have, after all, the option for straps but choose not to, and there’s a reason for this. Wannabe riders are something else, but they would go backnforth with tt as well so I wouldn’t count them in for strapless riders.

Peace :)

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1662
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Is strapless overrated?

Postby Matteo V » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:07 pm

omg wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:51 pm
.....why not go with tt if you want to jump?
To engage the wave with power and control, a significant fin system, and foot placement over those fins is critical. Twin-tips do not allow that engagement with the wave face except by edging or flattening the board with no horizontal engagement. The next step below this is a finless skimboard.

TT's are great for wave riding in a much different way than directional boards with significant fins. I actually prefer watching hard-boot guys ripping up the wave faces more than strapped riders. But the feeling of engaging a full fin set into the face of the wave with powerful fin engaged turns, yields more of an exciting, high g-force ride. Power from the fins, being an actual foil shape, is the most efficient and best "roller coaster" ride in kitesurfing. TT's with boots are the most fun to watch in waves.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Frozenfox, Google [Bot], jaros, MSN [Bot], stevet25, Trippeux and 26 guests