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Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

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vela99
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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby vela99 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:26 pm

taabsr wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:35 pm
vela99 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 pm
One thing I find difficult to deal with is that there are kite specific rules which other spor users like windsurfers or sailors may not know about. The more specific rules are the more difficult it becomes.
I for one did not know that a kiter has the right of way when entering the water until I started kiting. It makes sense but many windsurfers do not know this.

By the way, I always thought the sailor going out against the breaking waves has the right of way over the sailor on the wave unless specific wave spot rules apply. Has this general rule changed? I doubt it.
Like in sailing 2 things you should have in mind:

1.- avoid the collision at all times.

2.- the lower ability to maneuver determines priority.

Lot's of people including windsurfers don't care about these rules, unfortunately.

If you are on a proper wave you will have a harder time to change direction because your maneuver space is limited by the wind and wave, if you are going out against the wave in between the waves you can quickly turn around and get away from there to return after the wave has passed.

I agree 100% with your points 1. and 2.

But a kiters ability to maneuver going out against breaking waves is much higher than a windsurfer ability to maneuver which is probably the reason why the rule is exactly the other way around in windsurfing (in the meantime I have verified that this rule has not changed). This in itself is a problem. The kiter on the wave believes he has the right of way and the windsurfer going out against the wave believes he has the right of way.

Point 2 is consistently applied. This is what I meant with the difficulty with specific rules.

I do not agree that windsurfers do not care about kite rules, at least not to a larger degree than kiters do not care about windsurfing rules. Only kiters just do not know only windsurfing rules and windsurfers do not know kiter rules. This is a problem by definition.

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby taabsr » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:09 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:21 pm
i give another good example in kiting that is unique to kiting

cross onshore or onshore conditions. riders are trying their very best to get upwind to do a trick/waveride

Along comes mr kook "i read kiteboarding is sailing, I know the rules of kiting , Starboard!!" (the trick/wave/session cycle is on port) and now this rider has the ability the mess up the session as they can pinch enough wind by slowing down demanding starboard.

Who has the lowest ability to maneuver in the case you describe? the guy in the wave or the guy that is trying to get away from the beach?

For me, it's the guy trying to get away from the beach as if he gets into problems he gets to hit the beach and can get hurt.

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby taabsr » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:14 pm

It’s a rule I disagree with very much as well.
A vessel on water has more freedom and is safer than vessel by the shore. But boats float. An airplane on the ground is way safer and has more freedom (specifically freedom to stay in place safely) than an airplane in the skies. On the other hand if guy near shore can’t get out (worse if he can’t even fly the kite freely restricted by trees or other obstructions) because people are continuously blocking him - that’s bs too.
Rarely this one becomes a problem and it is rather a pain when an extremely slow guy gets in or gets out. Literally some people can block whole launch/landing area fo quite some time. The worst comes when they “insist on anchored self-launch/landing”
The rule is to be applied if you are going to enter the water and it's not meant for the people to just stand there forever.

The principle behind it is that if you have a bad piloting mistake you are in more danger if you are on land. That is why there is a priority.
This doesn't apply if you haven't launched your kite and most times this isn't even a real problem except when you have people wanting to show off near the beach and just make tricks when others want to come in.

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby taabsr » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:17 pm

vela99 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:26 pm
taabsr wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:35 pm
vela99 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 pm
One thing I find difficult to deal with is that there are kite specific rules which other spor users like windsurfers or sailors may not know about. The more specific rules are the more difficult it becomes.
I for one did not know that a kiter has the right of way when entering the water until I started kiting. It makes sense but many windsurfers do not know this.

By the way, I always thought the sailor going out against the breaking waves has the right of way over the sailor on the wave unless specific wave spot rules apply. Has this general rule changed? I doubt it.
Like in sailing 2 things you should have in mind:

1.- avoid the collision at all times.

2.- the lower ability to maneuver determines priority.

Lot's of people including windsurfers don't care about these rules, unfortunately.

If you are on a proper wave you will have a harder time to change direction because your maneuver space is limited by the wind and wave, if you are going out against the wave in between the waves you can quickly turn around and get away from there to return after the wave has passed.

I agree 100% with your points 1. and 2.

But a kiters ability to maneuver going out against breaking waves is much higher than a windsurfer ability to maneuver which is probably the reason why the rule is exactly the other way around in windsurfing (in the meantime I have verified that this rule has not changed). This in itself is a problem. The kiter on the wave believes he has the right of way and the windsurfer going out against the wave believes he has the right of way.

Point 2 is consistently applied. This is what I meant with the difficulty with specific rules.

I do not agree that windsurfers do not care about kite rules, at least not to a larger degree than kiters do not care about windsurfing rules. Only kiters just do not know only windsurfing rules and windsurfers do not know kiter rules. This is a problem by definition.
Did not know that but if in windsurfing they have priority must be because it's harder for them to turn and get away and in that case, I think the kiteboarder should give way.

In the water, kiters are way more mobile than other users so we should give them preference. This doesn't apply if you are already surfing a wave and a windsurfer or any other want's to enter the same wave.

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby knotwindy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:39 pm

How about when there is a decent shore break and someone is standing on the beach with their kite in the air talking for 3 minutes and suddenly decides to head out while someone else is riding the ‘wave’? If you are going to stand on the beach with your thumb up you arse and your dick in your other hand for a while, you have no “right” to insist others get out of your way whenever you decide “now I’ll go.” Lots of scenarios where things don’t fit into neat categories. We all have stories that are one-offs. If you are on here reading this you are probably good enough to:
Pay attention, give space, smile.

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby taabsr » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:50 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:39 pm
How about when there is a decent shore break and someone is standing on the beach with their kite in the air talking for 3 minutes and suddenly decides to head out while someone else is riding the ‘wave’? If you are going to stand on the beach with your thumb up you arse and your dick in your other hand for a while, you have no “right” to insist others get out of your way whenever you decide “now I’ll go.” Lots of scenarios where things don’t fit into neat categories. We all have stories that are one-offs. If you are on here reading this you are probably good enough to:
Pay attention, give space, smile.
Common sense should be used as primary these are guidelines but all subject to interpretation.
Pay attention, give space, smile.
this is 100% tru

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Jan:) » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:58 pm

taabsr wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:39 pm
All of these are sailing rules.
...
But I'm curious to know what are your sailing rules that differ any of the ones I presented.
...
These rules are sailing rules and nothing is actually made up by me.
How is this not obvious?
The Colregs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... e_another) - only have those 3 cases:

Port gives way to starboard.
Windward gives way to leeward.
An overtaking vessel must keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

The give-way vessel must take early and substantial action to keep well clear.
The stand-on vessel shall maintain her course and speed

So depending on which course you are when encountering a beginner or someone riding the wave, you are the stand on vessel and must maintain your course.
"Your" rules give the beginner or waverider priority.

That's the exact opposite.
If you change your course to get out of the way, you are violating the rules.


Seriously what you show there is a nice way to behave on the water, it is exactly how I ride all the time.
Only when you come and think about it as "rules" or "priority", it gets problematic.

There is a difference in giving beginners room on the water out of courtesy and a beginner himself thinking "I have priority, everyone has to make room for me".

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Matteo V » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:10 pm

The kiter on the wave (actually engaging the wave face - NOT WHITE WATER) has the right of way over outgoing kiter on the inside. This has been discussed in multiple threads, and is established at almost every break. If you are at an unfamiliar break, you absolutely must talk to the locals about any special circumstances, accepted rules, or hazards at that break. If you happen to make it out before any locals at a location that is new to you, you need to follow their lead when they get out, or come back to the beach and talk to them as soon as you recognized a kite pumped up on the beach.
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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Matteo V » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:22 pm

taabsr wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:17 pm
...But a kiters ability to maneuver going out against breaking waves is much higher than a windsurfer ability to maneuver....
vela99 wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:30 pm
One thing I find difficult to deal with is that there are kite specific rules which other spot users like windsurfers or sailors may not know about. The more specific rules are the more difficult it becomes.
I for one did not know that a kiter has the right of way when entering the water until I started kiting. It makes sense but many windsurfers do not know this.
It is blatantly obvious, and there is no longer a debate on this, that a kitesurfer has the greatest ability to maneuver in a wave riding situation vs a windsurfer. There are no exceptions that I have ever been able to find.

The additional accepted rule among kitesurfers that "rider on the wave has the right of way", is an exception to maritime law that exists only inside of kitesurfing. That rule does not extend outside of kitesurfing to any other water user such as prone surfers, swimmers, windsurfers, etc...
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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Matteo V » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:13 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:24 am
What windsurfers can just drop in on kitesurfers lol wtf!

I get out my little red flag and waterproof sailing rules book as i use my priority rights to enter the water, always goes down well with the friendly locals.

Here is another awesome example of how kiteboarding isnt sailing and how you cannot just apply the rules of one sport to another.! In fact, in law where I live, it isnt classed as a sailing - it is classed as a surf vessel, and if these dumb sailing kooks think they can change that, they have another thing coming.

Simply eurocentricity. When you are well travelled you know reality - that anyone in their right mind would take the trouble to respect local tradition and laws at teh spots they ride. Get out your international sailing kook book and you are likely to have it swiftly jammed up your ass.
Eduardo wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:07 am
a random and unstructured mix of classical sailing rules, wave rules, and author opinions.
The one thing I never warmed up to about kitesurfing, is all the a------s that participate in this sport. Seriously, windsurfing was difficult enough to weed out about 98% of the idiots who seem to make it their goal in life to not get along.

So let me put this plain and simple. Maritime law, very similar to vehicular traffic laws, is about defining rules to HELP us all get to where we are going without having a collision. Anyone here complaining about the IOC and sailing rules, is completely missing the point of maritime law. There is a saying in sailboat racing - "Good sailors know the rule book front to back and have the ability to beat their opponents with it, but the best sailors just go fast". But even if you know the rules front to back, you cannot cause a collision by using those rules. So even in racing, these rules exist to avoid collisions. That is all this thread is about.

As far as "non racing" maritime law, which are the rules by which we abide, they are clear, concise, and will be used in any case where a court needs to establish liability for damages. If a kitesurfer hits a swimmer with the board while kiting, the kitesurfer is are liable because the kitesurfer did not have the right of way. If a kitesurfer causes injury to a beginner because the kitesurfer was throwing tricks close enough to the swimmer to hit them if the kitesurfer blew it, the kitesurfer is liable because the kiteurfer did not have the right of way. If a kitesurfer hits a windsurfer and causes damage to the windsurf board or rig, the kitesurfer is liable becasue the kitesurfer did not have right of way.

When rules are altered by users for specific circumstances such as kitesurfing waves, those rules are altered so that we can all get along AND RIDE THE WAVE. If every outgoing kiter forced the kiter on the wave to stop riding the wave, and try to make it back out over that wave:

1. you could almost never ride small waves at crowded kitesurfing locations as kiters going out would force you off the wave
2. you would be forced to try to get over large waves, resulting in falling, which would then give you right of way over the outgoing kiter anyway
3. if you had to run away from the closeout to avoid falling, you would get closer to the outgoing kiter where falling at that point would cause them to collide with you

So as you can see from the above examples, establishing right of way to the rider on the wave, HELPS EVERYONE.
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