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Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

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Matteo V
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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Matteo V » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm

Jan:) wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 am
I really think it is better to just stick to the proven sailing rules.
All your personal additions to those rules simply do not work and in a pinch, they might actually lead to collisions.

There is a reason collision avoidance rules are as simple and clean as they are.

There simply must not be any margin to argue.
If you can argue here in the forum about them, how can you be sure you take the right point of view on it on the water?
Impossible.
Who is right and who is wrong can be determined by a court of law, should you wish to only abide by the rules which you find simple. Of course property damage or physical harm would be required to go to that extreme. But it is possible as civil and criminal liability does extend to water sports.



Jan:) wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 am
Beginner having priority over experienced kiter - how do you know who is a beginner?
You must observe your surroundings, and others around you in order to avoid a collision. Taking note of their speed, upwind capabilities, and demonstrated skills, typically is enough to determine someone's skill level in any sport. If you are unsure, treat them as a beginner by yielding right of way to them.



Jan:) wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 am
And even if you know - you as an experienced kiter with priority give way to a beginner.
Beginner is sticking to the sailing rules and is also giving way.
If the beginner can maintain course, then they are likely not a beginner, but rather somewhere closer to your skill level. By a beginner "maintaining course", most would agree that they would simply continue to flop in the shallow learning area, or in the case of waves, continue swimming for their lost board regularly. I am not making fun of that, as I did that when I was a beginner too. I am simply stating that a beginner is not only obvious, but also very much incapable of "holding course" beyond "continuing along with crashing" after a short run, getting up again, then repeating that cycle with incrementally more success on each try.

The point is for an experienced kiter to assume that a beginner kiter will fall or crash, not be able to continue on their course for a long period of time, and often loose control of the kite while on the water.

Jan:) wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 am
You both crash - who's fault is it?
The kiter who did not have right of way.



Jan:) wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 am
Kiter riding the wave having priority - what qualifies at riding a wave?
I have seen people riding 10cm of whitewater feeling like they are Kelly Slater.
I do not believe that you know for sure they are "feeling like they are Kelly Slater". Here is how it works.

If you have a wave face (not whitewater) that is at least half the average size for that day, say "1.5m max height" waves with "1m average height" waves, engaging a wave of less than .5m should not necessarily grant you the right of way. Whitewater of any size also does not grant you the right of way unless it is too large to get back over. So think of a big closeout being a barrier to going out with risking falling in the very place where you would pose the most hazard to those trying to get out. This is not a "rule" but more common sense. It would also be common sense to yield right of way to a beginner just trying to get their first wave ride on a tiny secondary wave. Again, not a rule, but to not yield so would be an obvious "d--k move". If you really think that you are a skilled kiter, see if you have the skill to stay completely out of the way of someone just trying to get their first waves. If Kelly Slater is out there on a 10cm wave, you have likely mistaken the identity of that particular kitesurfer.



Jan:) wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 am
And even once that is clear, how do you know where the kiter riding the wave will go next.
On a pointbreak its pretty obvious, but on a messy beachbreak you simply cannot know.
So that rules does not provide you with a clear action to take, making it worthless.
In vehicular traffic, there is no singularly defined distance you keep back from the vehicle in front of you. There is a wide range of distances which primarily rely on speed to determine, but secondarily rely on road conditions also. High speed and icy conditions require much more distance than that same speed in dry conditions. Hazards like construction workers also dictate slowing down and moving over.

If the situation exists where a kiter may, at any time, take one course or the other on the wave (dead onshore conditions), then simply give them the room to take any of those paths by staying further away than you would in sideshore conditions.



Jan:) wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:48 am
And the most obvious flaw with these self invented rules.
How do you know the other kiter sticks to the same set of rules and not to some other ruleset someone else thought up?
Again just like when driving a vehicle, you look out for the idiot who does not follow the rules or is distracted. While this does not prevent all collisions with those not following the rules, it will prevent most. Luckily in kitesurfing, we are out there with pretty much the same group of kiters on the water for the entire session and we can quickly determine those who are the idiots vs the more conscientious. The simple of it is to just observe others from a good distance before you give them the chance to show their stupidity and collide with you.
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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby longwhitecloud » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:23 am

Respect the country you are in, the place you are riding, and the locals you are riding with.

Dont be a kook.

It' so obvious to highly experienced long term kiters that kiting has it's own unique set of guidelines that grew from grassroots pioneering kiteboarders wanting to stay safe ( and safe to others) and give each other opportunities, due to the basic nature of kites, not sailing kite kooks.

The sailing kite kooks agenda continues, they are a liability to our sport. Stop them now!

Kiteboarder self determination all the way as it has historically been, parasites and leeches will not be tolerated.

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Jan:) » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 am

Matteo V wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:09 pm
long text
I do not need a lecture on how to behave on the water. I know how to handle myself.

But you are obviously mixing up "behaving nicely/common sense" with "right of way/priority".

Your self invented "wave rules" show this so obviously.
If you need a tape measure to find out who has "priority", your rules really need some work ;-)

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Toby » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:25 am

No one owns a wave.
A wave for me is a ramp.
So I want to use it too...which is my absolute right!

But common sense comes into play.

While I would always give right of way to someone at Punta Preta, I would not in Cabarete at the shore break.

And don’t expect someone gives your right of way because you have a surfboard. If you see someone jumping with a TT at the same spot over and over, give way too.

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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby longwhitecloud » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:01 pm

"No one owns a wave."

Unfortunately in some parts of the world they do.

Examples: Until fairly recently Fiji : Cloudbreak, , Namoutu lefts etc. Maldives . (eg Pasta point) are still privately owned waves. Indo - various eg Telos

It is also forbidden to surf or kite on Sundays in some parts of the pacific, just the way it is.

Some kook will come along and explain the rules of sailing to you now now regarding boosting a mush closeout ramp that kite surfers are wanting to ride. This is just embarrassing.

I love to do a huuuge boost, and use my sailing parasite kite kook rule book right AS LESS MANOEUVRABLE because I am in the air at the mercy of the wind with less control - for everyone to to get the hell out of my way.

#fail

It is plainly clear kiteboarding historically has had its own set of standards and rules based on being it's own unique sport , vastly increased safety factors compared to sailing, and traditional codes of conducts for freestyle sessions and waveriding.

I snapped another line yesterday... did 3 at once last time - how is that even possible! Havnt snapped lines like this for years. (was suuuuper powered)


Anyway, good on the thread author for the efforts of bringing this up for debate.

Matteo V
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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:05 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:01 pm
I snapped another line yesterday... did 3 at once last time - how is that even possible! Havnt snapped lines like this for years. (was suuuuper powered)
I would like to know how that is possible too! Been a few years since that happened to me but it was a surprise and it was nice I was not using a single front line flag out as I would have (50/50 chance) lost the kite in a place that I would not have gotten it back without stepping on a few rattle snakes in the bush.

But back on topic.



longwhitecloud wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:01 pm
Some kook will come along and explain the rules of sailing to you now now regarding boosting a mush closeout ramp that kite surfers are wanting to ride. This is just embarrassing.
I won't berate anyone for riding or boosting off of mush, or even riding it. I do that too, on occasion, though it is definitely not my focus. Still, you are not riding a wave on mush (you are riding mush) - or at least you cannot claim right of way for riding it.

Matteo V
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Re: Do you know the Kitesurf Right of Way Rules? Find out how to determine if you have priority

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:13 pm

Toby wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:25 am
No one owns a wave.
A wave for me is a ramp.
So I want to use it too...which is my absolute right!

But common sense comes into play.

While I would always give right of way to someone at Punta Preta, I would not in Cabarete at the shore break.

And don’t expect someone gives your right of way because you have a surfboard. If you see someone jumping with a TT at the same spot over and over, give way too.
This sounds a little harsh, but it is absolutely true and lost it's harsh tone on the second read. We do all have to get along, and have fun. At my summer wave spot, we do have a few TT boosters that show up on weekends when the wind is dead at Hood River. It is common sense that we get out of their way on any beach break because we can just head upwind or downwind. But there are certain spots where the wave is only perfect in a tiny area. At those small spots, a TT boosting the wave may not receive as friendly a reception as on a beach break.

But as far as "No one owns a wave" - right of way rules do not denote ownership. They are traffic rules. And as has been stated many times, the kiter with the right of way is more restricted as they must hold course and let the kiter without right of way change course to avoid them.


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