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Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

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tomtom
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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby tomtom » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:10 pm

My point was that some 3 struts are lighter than some one strut. Nothing else. Sorry if I confuse someone.

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:10 pm

Just seeing if anyone may agree with me on a minority view I seem to hold here. And honestly, I am thinking I may be wrong with it, but personal experience has never given me reason to go against my views - so.

I do not think weight of a kite has as much to do with the flight characteristics as most people think it does. I have flown new kites in the same design with heavier construction, and have only noticed a difference in less than 7knots, but that is with closed cell foil kites. In the same situation with inflatables, I can't really tell the difference when moving on the water. My theory, which I realize is likely to be somewhat wrong, is that weight of a kite has very little to do with increasing performance vs kite design.

Just to qualify, I am 100+kgs, though I do not necessarily believe that weight of the rider scales with weight of the kite. Any one else with me on this thinking or experience?

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby knotwindy » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:18 pm

In a subset of:
On a sheet & go kite in steady decent wind probably true

The more you want to or have to move the kite the more weight matters, IMO.

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:23 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:18 pm
In a subset of:
On a sheet & go kite in steady decent wind probably true

The more you want to or have to move the kite the more weight matters, IMO.
But design seems to play much more of a role in forward flying speed than weight - as evidenced by - lots of light weight kites flying forward slowly in the window, and lots of heavily constructed kites flying quickly forward in the window.

Heavy kites also can out turn lighter weight kites.

The ability to stay up in a lull also seems to be more related to how far forward the kite flies. Regardless of weight, a kite that does not fly too far forward in the window has a better chance of not overflying the window or Hindenburging.

So within the design envelope of usable kites, how does weight actually matter above 10knots?

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby matrium » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:28 pm

dylan* wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:58 pm
For twintip riding in normal wind, kite weight is not really a big deal. I've always found that when the kite has enough power for me (145 lbs) to ride, the kite will stay in the air and fly just fine.
That's exactly what my initial idea was. But jakemoore raised some good points where weight could be important, the biggest one for me would be lulls. But than again, what good is a kite that stays in the air on a lull when then wind is too weak to actually pull me? Might as well drop onto the water, our local lake is so shallow you can walk through the whole thing and I am confident to relaunch even in weak conditions because I can WALK backwards.

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby tomtom » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:38 pm

Reconsidering - for high line load twintip riding - it can be very much unimportant. But from two competent kites i always prefer lighter one - but im almost only on HF.

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby BWD » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:41 pm

Suppose you are sending it deep offwind, whether on a big wave, or flat water on an extended Super-G carve, whatever, and the wind lulls, the wave jacks up, or you spot a fish net you have to avoid, any of which could require you to sail dead downwind for longer than you planned. Almost always on a hydrofoil, and often on a wave with any board, you will find your apparent wind dropping from powered to marginal. You will need the kite to drift and float, and probably also need it to be responsive to sine or loop it without stalling the kite or slowing down (especially unappealing if a wave is breaking behind you). The lighter the kite is, the better it will respond when it has low apparent wind speed (unless its just a crappy kite!). Most foil kites are light enough to at least float or drift well. Lots of LEIs are not.

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:43 pm

matrium wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:28 pm
But than again, what good is a kite that stays in the air on a lull when then wind is too weak to actually pull me? Might as well drop onto the water, our local lake is so shallow you can walk through the whole thing and I am confident to relaunch even in weak conditions because I can WALK backwards.
My home lake is similar and I agree with you when you are on the shallow flat. But we have deeper water too where a kite on the surface is no advantage. Still, if I can walk in the shallows, it is easier to drag a kite than desperately trying to keep it up in 3knots.

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby Matteo V » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:48 pm

BWD wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:41 pm
... and probably also need it to be responsive to sine or loop it without stalling the kite or slowing down (especially unappealing if a wave is breaking behind you). The lighter the kite is, the better it will respond when it has low apparent wind speed (unless its just a crappy kite!). Most foil kites are light enough to at least float or drift well. Lots of LEIs are not.
On a LEI, what do you think the difference is in stall speed on a standard kite construction vs light weight construction? Statistically significant?

Once you hit zero wind speed at the kite, the displacement of the kite is the only force keeping the kite up, until it starts to fall and resistance to falling includes area presented to the air it is falling through. Foil kites stay up better because of this "displacement", though that may be a somewhat inaccurate term for it.

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Re: Importance of a lightweight kite for non-foiling

Postby knotwindy » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:53 pm

It’s not just the stall speed but the ability to re-engage before the kite hits down. Which kite is more likely to react quicker in low wind slightly slacked lines? Heavier or lighter? Maybe it’s an inertia/momentum question?


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