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Twintip for choppy water

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Matteo V
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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby Matteo V » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:54 pm

FLandOBX wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:12 pm
sarc wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:48 pm
the Mako....has no pop (but plenty grip for jumping....
What's the difference?
Board pop is when you step on the tail and it "ollies" up out of the water. Kind of like the board is creating it's own ramp with the bottom shape. Some boards are worthless at this, but can be great at handling chop specifically because they don't send you up off of every piece of chop or jump up every time you over weight the tail. Boards with less 'pop' make great beginner boards because they don't beat around the rider so much when they are still trying to figure out board control.

"Load and pop" is when you combine the kite tension via a quick direction change upwind, and press the tail, to combine the most powerful aspects of each -

1. changing the wind-window by moving upwind (puts the kite further back in the apparent wind window and increases the wind speed throughout the jump)
2. Tensioning the lines with the upwind movement (kind of part of number one, but helpful to think of it as separate)
3. Using the 'pop' of the board to initiate some upward movement, and breaking free of the water's surface (in chop you can use a ramp, but in flatwater, you have to rely on the board's "pop" to break free of the water's surface without using some of the kite's power to do it - you use forward momentum to break free so the kite only has to lift you)

Just a note: I have used lots of TT's with varying degrees of "board pop". But the board with the most pop I have ever ridden was not a TT, it was a directional - the 2012 North "Whip" quad finned kitesurfboard. Just put a bit of weight on the tail, and it would come off the water. Other directionals I have used mostly had less board pop than TT's with the most pop. However, "load and pop" is typically superior on a TT because of how hard you can sink the edge (edging) against the wind for a more powerful, and quick, turn upwind. Surfboards, even with their larger fins, just don't bite so well as you lose forward speed (fins need fast water flow) carving going into the wind on the setup.

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FLandOBX
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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby FLandOBX » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:40 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:54 pm
FLandOBX wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:12 pm
sarc wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:48 pm
the Mako....has no pop (but plenty grip for jumping....
What's the difference?
Board pop is when you step on the tail and it "ollies" up out of the water. Kind of like the board is creating it's own ramp with the bottom shape. Some boards are worthless at this, but can be great at handling chop specifically because they don't send you up off of every piece of chop or jump up every time you over weight the tail. Boards with less 'pop' make great beginner boards because they don't beat around the rider so much when they are still trying to figure out board control.

"Load and pop" is when you combine the kite tension via a quick direction change upwind, and press the tail, to combine the most powerful aspects of each -

1. changing the wind-window by moving upwind (puts the kite further back in the apparent wind window and increases the wind speed throughout the jump)
2. Tensioning the lines with the upwind movement (kind of part of number one, but helpful to think of it as separate)
3. Using the 'pop' of the board to initiate some upward movement, and breaking free of the water's surface (in chop you can use a ramp, but in flatwater, you have to rely on the board's "pop" to break free of the water's surface without using some of the kite's power to do it - you use forward momentum to break free so the kite only has to lift you)

Just a note: I have used lots of TT's with varying degrees of "board pop". But the board with the most pop I have ever ridden was not a TT, it was a directional - the 2012 North "Whip" quad finned kitesurfboard. Just put a bit of weight on the tail, and it would come off the water. Other directionals I have used mostly had less board pop than TT's with the most pop. However, "load and pop" is typically superior on a TT because of how hard you can sink the edge (edging) against the wind for a more powerful, and quick, turn upwind. Surfboards, even with their larger fins, just don't bite so well as you lose forward speed (fins need fast water flow) carving going into the wind on the setup.
Yes. Thanks, Matteo.

My question still stands. What's the difference between "pop" and "grip for jumping"? As you've explained in detail, the best boards for jumping have good "pop" (aka "grip for jumping").

Matteo V
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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby Matteo V » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:11 pm

"Board Pop" can be utilized in flat water with the board flat on the water with out lift from the kite - NO edging. Stepping on the tail in these conditions will let you determine if the board has good "board pop". If the board pops off the water better than other boards, it likely has good "board Pop". Some boards will feel like they are stuck to the water, almost like a vacuum - that means the board does not have good pop.

Edging capability can be generally determined by being over powered with the kite, having some lift from the kite, and still being able to sink the rail and turn very hard upwind. This hard turn upwind, with proper initial kite position, can lift the kiter off the water with minimal upward movement of the kite alone. A WIDE lightwind board would have a hard time at doing this when overpowered, unless the rider was very heavy, or had big feet to leverage heelside well. A NARROW/LONG light wind board would have some edging capability, but would not be able to turn hard (quickly) upwind because of the long water line engagement on the rail. Rocker can help on longer light wind boards, but I am not sure how much.

When you put the two of these things together, you get a system that will "load and pop" very well. Think of the "load" part as edging. Think of the "pop" part as a flat water "ollie". Obviously, smaller boards are better at this. I do have a hunch that there is a ideal rocker (not to little, not too much) for having good edging and pop at the same time.
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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby iriejohn » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:43 pm

andylc wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:01 pm
It’s all very subjective but I’ve demo’ed an OR Mako and thought it was a complete dog of a board. Can’t think of anything good to say about it, not even that good in chop as it’s just far too cumbersome. Love my Lieuwe board in all conditions.
Ditto. I'm 82kg and my 136 x 40.5 Lieuwe Shotgun works great in all conditions. I've had a few TTs including Shinn Monks and a Ronson, North Selects, Cabrinha, and tried other TTs and the Shotgun is hands down the best board I've ever had from 15 knots with a 12m to 30+ knots with a 6m. It also takes NTT straps (an option) which is very nice.
Matteo V wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:11 pm
I do have a hunch that there is a ideal rocker (not to little, not too much) for having good edging and pop at the same time.
That is exactly what I find the Shotgun has.

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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby andylc » Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:58 pm

I also use NTT straps with mine. Great to be able to customise screw spacings to fit whatever straps you want to use.

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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby Flyboy » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:52 pm

For choppy water? A foil. May as well get with the program ... :jump:

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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby Jukka » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:54 am

Of the TTs I have had or tested, two I've noticed I like how they ride on chop.
- RRD Bliss V3. Smoooth ride. But then that was the single thing I liked in that board.
- Shinn Bronq CRB4 (2018). Also very smooth on chop, but unlike the Bliss, I like everything in this board. A keeper.

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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby alexeyga » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:29 pm

+1 for the Monk or BronQ

Funny thing is - once the initial euphoria of getting a new board passes - you will stop noticing how smooth the Monk is until taking some other non-Shinn board for a ride - you'll be in a for a surprise...

And yes - what you'll gain in knees comfort - you'll loose in upwind. Either Monk or BronQ (I owned both in similar sizes - kept the Monk) are rather power-hungry, so don't be afraid to step up a size.

Have been hearing good stuff about Shotguns - but haven't had a chance to try one yet.

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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby Obe_1 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:21 pm

+1 for the Shinn Monk.
I weigh in at 72 Kg and ride the Monk 135 X 42. Its perfect for me using 8 - 12m kites in choppy water. No regrets ever buying this board. Every time I ride something else I am grateful to get back on the Monk. It not just the ride, you don't get that spray in your face. Mako's do ride well, but expect to get some spray when its choppy.

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Re: Twintip for choppy water

Postby Exal » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:46 am

Obe_1 wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:21 pm
+1 for the Shinn Monk.
I weigh in at 72 Kg and ride the Monk 135 X 42. Its perfect for me using 8 - 12m kites in choppy water. No regrets ever buying this board. Every time I ride something else I am grateful to get back on the Monk. It not just the ride, you don't get that spray in your face. Mako's do ride well, but expect to get some spray when its choppy.
I get spray from my monk ghost, especially if I put the front fin in the water. In a video from advakite, Anton is saying that every board has spray.


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