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Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby PullStrings » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:40 am

Good
Now in lessons student are timid at waterstarts
The kite stays overhead noon too long
And then they barely dive it down
Also when teaching re-launch in deep water the kite shoots up to noon in many cases
Then they body drag to their boards and put kite at noon again to re-waterstart

So you cant teach to always keep the kite at 45 degrees at all times...once you get going on water yes....while standing around at the beach or entering the water yes

Unless they have athletic body type smaller waist than muscular bigger chest then waist works OK won't ride up

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby purdyd » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 am

I guess since everyone is going to use long lines, they should start with long lines.

And since everyone wants to foil, they should start with foiling.

Do you see the point there?

If you start out dragging, the kite is pretty much going to be pulling up on your harness.

Any type of boost, the kite is pulling up on your harness.

There are plenty of times the kite pulls up even in just normal riding.

And I don’t see anything wrong with seat harnesses. I think the waist harness popularity is partly just a look cool thing.
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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:09 am

I've literally never seen a school with anything other then waist harnesses.

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby taabsr » Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:00 am

In different sources, I have found some good comments, and so I'll re-edit the video to give more info about the decision regarding the waist or seat harness in the lessons.

Advantages of seat:

-Lower center of gravity allowing the bar to stay closer (better for kids, people with short arms or people with a back problem), also this allows for the transfer of power to be closer to the board.
- doesn't need such a tight fit as the waist because it uses your legs.
Disadvantage:
The problem is that it's more uncomfortable on the legs and reduces a bit of freedom/mobility.

Teaching procedure:
- Due to incorrect posture by staying straight the harness can go up, also keeping the kite at 12 can do the same. For this, The waist or seat is the same, and the correction is on the teaching method not on equipment. Make sure to learn how to keep the kite low and on one side of the wind window, it is how you will ride, walk and do everything so better learn that instead of things you will not be doing like keeping the kite at 12 all the time.

Most people use waist due to freedom and mobility so it's important and relevant to have that experience in the school so you can decide after what suits you better. The teaching procedure should be the same to make sure you learn the correct way.

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby dylan* » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:17 pm

purdyd wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 am
I guess since everyone is going to use long lines, they should start with long lines.
Sure, why not. Long lines are not any more difficult than short lines. In fact many schools prefer teaching on incredibly slow kites because they're afraid their students are going to make a mistake turning the kite too quickly. Long lines only increase the space available to prevent a mistake from crashing the kite.
purdyd wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 am
And since everyone wants to foil, they should start with foiling.
Not everyone wants to foil. Many people find it boring af. Don't be obtuse, these are completely different topics.
purdyd wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 am
If you start out dragging, the kite is pretty much going to be pulling up on your harness.

Any type of boost, the kite is pulling up on your harness.

There are plenty of times the kite pulls up even in just normal riding.

And I don’t see anything wrong with seat harnesses. I think the waist harness popularity is partly just a look cool thing.
My harness very rarely rides up even when body dragging or boosting. My friends' harnesses don't ride up. I see some beginners' harnesses riding up when they don't purchase the right size, or have a strange body shape. Maybe you fall into one of those categories and are just projecting your opinion onto kiters at large?

I see seat harnesses as a tool for racing only, or if you have body-problems (bad back, overweight, etc). They restrict your movement so much and put the tow point in the wrong place.

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby Matteo V » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:36 pm

My 2cents on this, and why I use a seat almost exclusively now -

taabsr wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:00 am
....(regarding seat harnesses) also this allows for the transfer of power to be closer to the board.....
Great point on lower tow point. Lower hook locations essentially create less leverage (good in this case) over the board. Since the rider is always trimming the board to the desired angle to horizontal, a higher hook point means the rider is fighting more leverage to pull them over as opposed to just transferring that power to the board. This means less body positioning prior to increasing the kite's pull. So a seat harness, with my riding style (and using a quad finned directional), is pretty essential to maximizing the potential of the system in the way that I want.



taabsr wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:00 am
The problem is that it's (a seat harness) more uncomfortable on the legs and reduces a bit of freedom/mobility.
I would disagree from my experience, but I cannot back that up with good evidence. My feeling is that the most freedom/mobility of any harness I have ever used was with climbing harnesses while snowkiting. Again, pretty weak argument since my feet are locked into a snowboard (my primary snow riding choice), and my kiteskiing experience is limited. I will agree that there have been some extremely rigid seat harnesses that were the most restrictive with respect to freedom/mobility. But the minimalist type of seat harness allows more mobility as the twisting moment on your body is not trying to rotate at your chest, but rather at your actual waist (for a male). So in my experience, a higher hook point (waist harness) means I need to constantly tension my upper torso against the sideways pull of the kite. But with a seat harness, my upper body is free to rotate without fighting the kite.



taabsr wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:00 am
- Due to incorrect posture by staying straight the harness can go up, also keeping the kite at 12 can do the same..... Make sure to learn how to keep the kite low and on one side of the wind window,....
I still do every power level of kiting from overpowered to extremely underpowered. At my summer and winter locations, that is a choice as I have good clean winds. But spring and fall, I spend time kiting in pretty ugly inland winds. And in those ugly winds, a seat harness works out better. Since you are overpowered one minute with the kite just above you as you are trying to stay in control, then need to utilize as much power from the lull as you can to stay up (keeping the kite low), a seat maximizes the light wind power transfer and does not ride up when you put the kite up to shed the power.

Modern beginner kites, with their high depower help the kiter to not have to keep the kite above you as much when overpowered, but it is still unavoidable in variable conditions. The evidence for this is simple - they still make more than one size of kite because no matter how much depower any design has, it still can be too much in high winds for the rider who is just a fixed weight.

To put it simply, you want to avoid the kite being directly above you for most freeriding, but there are times that it is unavoidable outside of freeriding. Specifically, when jumping or over powered.

And please note for safety, if you need to keep the kite directly above you to hold it down on land, you are overpowered and are in danger. Some location with strong longshore current that negates the effective wind speed on the water, but not on land, almost require you to be overpowered when launching and landing. So upward pull (bad for a waist harness, but great in a seat harness) is unavoidable for many riders.

But as other threads have examined, many kiters of certain mentalities use waist harnesses for looks, not functionality.
Last edited by Matteo V on Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby bay surfer » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:40 pm

Simply seat harness does not have to be fitted, waist harnesses do, so for lessens that is why they are used. Most kite seat harnesses the hook is high in the same position as a waist.

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby Matteo V » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:47 pm

bay surfer wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:40 pm
Most kite seat harnesses the hook is high in the same position as a waist.
Regardless of hook position, the harness itself, and it's contact with the body, dictates where the power is transferred to the rider.

With a waist harness, the load goes through the hook, then to the waist, where it is transferred to the body. From there, the body must transfer it through the back (spine, and partially, the abdominal muscles) until it gets to the legs and then is transferred to the feet.

A seat harness transfers the load through the hook to the harness, which is in contact with the legs. Thus cutting out the back and freeing it up from restriction.

The physics/body mechanics of each are very much different.

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby RickI » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:11 pm

I would have quit kiting 20 years ago if all I had to use was a waist harness. Have no back issues whatsoever even with all day kiting sessions with a seat harness. Why do so many people use waist harnesses when some may well "waste" their backs in time?

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Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby bay surfer » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:32 pm

Regardless of hook position, the harness itself, and it's contact with the body, dictates where the power is transferred to the rider.
Depends on the seat harness, mine is form fitting to back, but does not ride up due to leg straps, which is nice when looping. When pulling a deadman Abs work hard so your theory that power is always transferred low is bunk.


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