Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Forum for kitesurfers
Mossy 757
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1655
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:10 pm
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: First Landing State Park, Virginia Beach Oceanfront
Style: Kitefoil
Gear: Delta Hydrofoil and board. Cabrinha Velocity 9m, Flysurfer Sonic2 11m, Ozone R1V2 15m
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:51 pm

purdyd wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 am
I think the waist harness popularity is partly just a look cool thing.
I'll second that ^

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1078
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby purdyd » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:47 pm

dylan* wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:17 pm
purdyd wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 am
And since everyone wants to foil, they should start with foiling.
Not everyone wants to foil. Many people find it boring af. Don't be obtuse, these are completely different topics.
OP makes 3 points.

1 most want to use a waist harness so why start them on a seat harness?

See the analogy?

2 waist harness promotes keeping kite low.

Why? Because it is uncomfortable to have the kite lifting upward on a waist harness and so you avoid the pain.

If you do something that is more painful usually it is because you like how it looks, a tie or high heels spring to mind

It is not a question of riding up as much as where the force goes. I think force on the rib cage is not fun.

I know many who have hurt their ribs

3. Seat harness restricts the legs.

I don't really think so. I wouldn't run marathon in one but I have walked quite a ways. Not something you really notice on the water.

As far as mobility I know it used to be common to wear a waist harness loose so it could rotate. With more rope setups I don't see that as much and some of the new waist harnesses can be relatively restrictive and there are some fairly minimal seat harnesses that give you good mobility.
Last edited by purdyd on Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:55 am, edited 4 times in total.

speedreef
Medium Poster
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 9:12 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Oahu
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby speedreef » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:06 pm



Seat harnesses suck for wave riding :roll:

PullStrings
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:54 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: LEI's & Surfboards
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 24 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby PullStrings » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:29 pm

Wished I would have saved my Windsurfing Hawaii CHEST HARNESS from the early 80's to see if that would have worked
These users thanked the author PullStrings for the post:
purdyd (Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:07 am)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
GraemeF
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1056
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 10:16 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: Hythe Kent.
Dymchurch Kent
Greatstone Kent
Favorite Beaches: Le Morne Mauritius
Nyali Kenya
Style: Freeriding Ariel Lawnmower
Gear: Core
Brand Affiliation: Core Distributor
Location: Folkestone Kent UK
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby GraemeF » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm

Lots of reasons seat harnesses are more versatile, one you don't have to be so accurate with the fit, two lots of beginners don't have a 'waist' fact is if you measure your chest under your armpits and that measurement isn't a good couple of inches greater than the measurement around your middle MatteoV then you shouldn't even contemplate a waist harness. :wink:
Now back in the day when you had to learn how to control the kite by edging hard, a seat harness was more effective with the lower centre of effort affording greater power to be applied to the rail.
The waist harness only comes into it's own, when you're atheletically wedge shaped and you want to perform ariel maouevres, with the higher hook and higher centre of gravity your legs give better lower weight re-orientation on landings and stuff.
However you can, or used to be able to get high hook waist harnesses or those shorts type spoken of back there.
The final advanatage, breathing, they don't restrict breathing like a really tight waist harness can, if pulled up tight on an ill fitting body shape so it won't ride up.

Oh yes there's one more thing, beginners like buoyancy vests and seat harnesses work better with them.
These users thanked the author GraemeF for the post:
PullStrings (Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:51 pm)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
SENDIT!
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 2000
Local Beach: Okaloosa Island
Favorite Beaches: In no particular order; Kailua Beach, Oahu; Lake Nitinaht, BC; OBX
Gear: Ocean Rodeo Flite 17, Flite 12, Prodigy 9.5, Prodigy 7, Litewave Carbon Wing, Mako 150
Brand Affiliation: XL Kites
Location: XL Kites.com
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby SENDIT! » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:22 am

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:51 pm
purdyd wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:48 am
I think the waist harness popularity is partly just a look cool thing.
I'll second that ^
Yes. I think the popularity of waist harnesses is mostly for the same reason so many people hook their leashes to the back of their harnesses, even though they NEVER unhook. The reason is that they see all the cool kids wearing a waist, so that's what they want to get so they "won't be a beginner" anymore. The fact of the matter is that both styles of harness have their pros and cons. I tend to put my beginners on seat harness both for the lessons and typically for their first purchase. Sure, they'd benefit from unencumbered legs during all that walking back upwind they're going to be doing for a bit. BUT, it won't help hold that harness down while they're doing it. Not to mention, as has previously been noted, beginners do a LOT of things that seasoned kiters don't. A lot of unexpected kite movement when they make mistakes causes the harness to ride up. And a seat allows them to use their bodyweight to help them counter the force of the kite by sitting against it. Yes, the seat is going to lessen their flexibility, but getting the board on with one is a piece of cake, if you know the technique. I teach it to every single one of my students, and without fail, it works.

I also disagree with only keeping the kite at 45. When the kite is at 12, it has all lift, no directional pull. The further you get away from 12 and towards the water, that swaps to no lift and all directional pull. It is easy to see a student slowly letting the kite slide from 12 and off to the side, even if I'm not looking at the kite. Because they start getting pulled to the side as it generates directional pull and begins to overpower them. The trade off to keeping the kite at 12 is the possibility of the kite overflying and doing a hindenburg in light wind. Most kites these days, thankfully, have improved designs that seem to reduced that happening as much. And, as with anytime a kite is in the air, danger of lofting. One more reason to ensure they're familiar, in fact comfortable, with emergency procedures such as punching out.

As far as teaching goes, I like to use a waist harness (as long as the wind isn't strong). WHY? I found that as an instructor, I do a TON of walking that I would never be doing when I go kiting. The waist harness makes that much easier. I also found it difficult to climb on a waverunner in deep water with a seat harness. SO, as an instructor, I tend to wear a waist harness. If I'm kiting on my own and the wind is light or I'm foiling, I wear a waist. If the wind is strong, whether teaching or riding, I use a seat.

taabsr,
I applaud you for your videos and trying to make kiting better/easier/safer...I have liked most of them so far. ;)
These users thanked the author SENDIT! for the post:
FLandOBX (Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:19 am)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
taabsr
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1572
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Portugal
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby taabsr » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:29 am

Thanks for the feedback regarding the videos it helps to build motivation to keep making them.

I'll re-edit this one to include more info about the harness as I think there should be a bit more info about this than the one I put. That was also why I put the question here and in some other Facebook groups. There are pros and cons and son. People have made very valid points that should be integrated.

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5963
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby Kamikuza » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:31 am

taabsr wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:00 am
In different sources, I have found some good comments, and so I'll re-edit the video to give more info about the decision regarding the waist or seat harness in the lessons.

Advantages of seat:

-Lower center of gravity allowing the bar to stay closer (better for kids, people with short arms or people with a back problem), also this allows for the transfer of power to be closer to the board.
- doesn't need such a tight fit as the waist because it uses your legs.
Disadvantage:
The problem is that it's more uncomfortable on the legs and reduces a bit of freedom/mobility.

Teaching procedure:
- Due to incorrect posture by staying straight the harness can go up, also keeping the kite at 12 can do the same. For this, The waist or seat is the same, and the correction is on the teaching method not on equipment. Make sure to learn how to keep the kite low and on one side of the wind window, it is how you will ride, walk and do everything so better learn that instead of things you will not be doing like keeping the kite at 12 all the time.

Most people use waist due to freedom and mobility so it's important and relevant to have that experience in the school so you can decide after what suits you better. The teaching procedure should be the same to make sure you learn the correct way.
Waist harness goes up when the kite goes to relative 12 eg. you fall and get pulled through the water with the kite low. If you're not fit and wedge shaped, you'll never get it back down to your waist unless you go back to the shore and land the kite, especially if you have the harness tight.

Seat reduces enough of mobility that if you have a gut, it's tougher to say do foot outs or get on a foil board strapless. A hybrid like my Mystic Star with much lower profile leg straps is noticeably easier, but you get a little more ride up and a little more wedgie than the other two types. I use mine for foiling with a Dynabar, and it's perfect.

Uncomfortable on the legs? Only if the straps are too tight. I've haven't tightened leg straps on my Fusions for probably 4 years, and the only time it rides up and wedgies me is when the second power belt strap gets peeled off, usually in a face-first wipe out at speed or with power.

You still need to strap the shit out of the waist part, and because the pulldown strap actually pulls down, the hook sits lower.

Good form and posture creates (for me) the situation where the bar is being pulled in more, so trimming to maintain form before more relevant. Bar is only close if you pooh stance IMO

User avatar
FLandOBX
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 1:58 am
Kiting since: 2007
Local Beach: Hatteras Island, North Carolina, USA
Central Florida, USA
Style: Freestyle and Airstyle
Gear: Liquid Force NRG, FS Speed 4 Lotus, Pansh Aurora II,
RRD Poison, Axis Ltd, RRD BS45, SS Glide, SS Ankle Biter
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby FLandOBX » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:04 am

Taabsr, I always appreciate your videos. Thanks for posting them.

I think the presumption that most people will eventually use a waist harness is false. As has been said many times on this forum, the choice between waist and seat harnesses is one of personal preference. There are many highly experienced and skilled kiters who use a seat harness. Even if many may use a waist harness after learning, there are a considerable number of kiters who will not.

When I taught kiteboarding, I always had 3 types of harnesses to show my students: waist, traditional seat, and board shorts. We talked about the advantages and disadvantages of each. Many students (windsurfers, climbers, pear-shaped people) gravitated to the seat or board shorts harnesses simply hearing a discussion of the differences. But it's a choice that the student should make for himself or herself, not one that an instructor should pre-determine.

During lessons, for reasons others have already given, my students used a seat harness unless they specifically requested a waist harness. I haven't heard anything in this thread that would change my approach. For a beginner trying to figure out kite control, a seat harness is the better choice.

And for experienced riders who want to hold lots of power, have a long de-power throw to ride big over-powered kites, and boost airstyle tricks, or who may prefer a low hook based on a history of windsurfing or climbing, the seat or board shorts harnesses may be preferred.

In my personal riding, I have used all three types of harnesses. I started with a seat, went to board shorts, then to a waist, and now I'm exclusively using a seat again. A seat suits my riding style and, as others have said, I can ride all day without any core fatigue. I can also keep a seat harness much looser than a waist harness, which facilitates airstyle tricks. There are many advantages to a seat harness, and there are lots of kiters using them at my riding locations.

Bottom line for me is to provide students with information on all types of harnesses. Don't over-complicate lessons; a seat harness during lessons simplifies the learning process. Eventually, each student will make a choice that feels right for him or her. :thumb:
These users thanked the author FLandOBX for the post (total 2):
Matteo V (Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:07 am) • SENDIT! (Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:22 am)
Rating: 20%

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1024
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 31 times

Re: Why do schools keep using the seat harness in lessons but most people use waist?

Postby Matteo V » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:01 am

GraemeF wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm
Lots of reasons seat harnesses are more versatile, one you don't have to be so accurate with the fit, two lots of beginners don't have a 'waist' fact is if you measure your chest under your armpits and that measurement isn't a good couple of inches greater than the measurement around your middle MatteoV then you shouldn't even contemplate a waist harness. :wink:
Now back in the day when you had to learn how to control the kite by edging hard, a seat harness was more effective with the lower centre of effort affording greater power to be applied to the rail.
The waist harness only comes into it's own, when you're atheletically wedge shaped and you want to perform ariel maouevres, with the higher hook and higher centre of gravity your legs give better lower weight re-orientation on landings and stuff.
However you can, or used to be able to get high hook waist harnesses or those shorts type spoken of back there.
The final advanatage, breathing, they don't restrict breathing like a really tight waist harness can, if pulled up tight on an ill fitting body shape so it won't ride up.

Oh yes there's one more thing, beginners like buoyancy vests and seat harnesses work better with them.
126cm (49.5") chest
117cm (46") waist

Should I be allowed to use a waist harness?



GraemeF wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm
The waist harness only comes into it's own, when ...... you want to perform ariel maouevres, with the higher hook and higher centre of gravity your legs give better lower weight re-orientation on landings and stuff.
Can you maybe put some more detail into your assertion here?

Is boosting considered a aerial maneuver, or are you talking about more complicated unhooked tricks? Or maybe something in between?



GraemeF wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm
....with the higher hook and higher centre of gravity your legs give better lower weight re-orientation on landings and stuff.
Wait......it appears I have been trolled with big words followed by "and stuff". Still, very much at your service - Cappy!


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], dylan*, knotwindy and 8 guests

cron