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No need for a release system/safety?

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Matteo V
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No need for a release system/safety?

Postby Matteo V » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:58 pm

foilholio wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:00 pm
Matteo V wrote: foilholio wrote: ↑
Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:52 am

Matteo V wrote:
It (5th line) remains to this day, the safest flag out system.

For LEI maybe, and for some foils, but any single line rear or front works well on foils and is unmatched or something like ARCs.

Matteo V wrote:
Also, the release needs to be re-loadable in real world conditions for it to be of any use after activation.

Easy reloading is far over rated. The release should really only be used were reload is not even a consideration. You have accidental releases, but that is just poor design. You shouldn't be fixing a leaky bucket with another bucket.

I am appreciative of your response. But I call BS on this. Just with the safety maintained by reloading quickly and getting back under way quickly, in regards to innocent beach goers, your statement goes out the window.
I am not sure what you are calling BS on? I am mostly agreeing with you about 5th lines on LEI, but my limited experience lends me some doubts, for foils it is mostly true but single line does work and has worked extremely well on foils better than fifth in some cases like on ARCs. For foils my experience using flagging is very extensive, I trust them far over LEI especially when the release goes wrong.

As to needing to reload to save beach goers? Why? Why are you releasing with a threat to beach goers in the first place? A further question is why are you kiting with beach goers at all?

It''s the same design philosophy as to avoid needing an easy reload because of accidental releases. If you catch and handle the prior cause then no further creative solution is needed.

It's great Ozone have a easy reload, but it's one still a chicken loop ,and two a big bulky piece of crap, like most all other systems out there.
Is it actually a thing that some kiteboarders believe that you DO NOT need a safety release? Or am I reading this wrong?



foilholio wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:00 pm
As to needing to reload to save beach goers? Why? Why are you releasing with a threat to beach goers in the first place? A further question is why are you kiting with beach goers at all?
Your control over the kite is best when the kite is flying. So the less time you spend 'not flying' the kite the better, regardless of the safety system. Thus a quick reload, after an accidental or intentional release, is safer than a slow or difficult reload.



foilholio wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:00 pm
Why are you releasing with a threat to beach goers in the first place?
It is fairly difficult to seriously injure someone with the kite itself. It is much easier to seriously injure someone with tensioned kite lines. But your body mass moving at 20mph, and accelerating, has a huge potential to injure someone. This can occur when you lose control of the kite due to a wind gust, or turbulence. If you do lose control and become a projectile, you also have little control over the kite or lines. Which brings them into the injury potential equation too. Thus safety activation, even when there are beach goers, can be the safest option for limiting injuries to all parties because it stops you from becoming a projectile. It also allows you to have relative control over the situation as in being able to recover, or relaunch your kite.



foilholio wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:00 pm
A further question is why are you kiting with beach goers at all?
Given that there are other people on the planet, and beaches and water are desirable for recreation for the vast majority of them, there will be beach goers at potentially every location you can kite at.

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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby jakemoore » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:23 pm

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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby Matteo V » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:28 pm

I am talking about NOT having any sort of safety. That thread is all about alternative safeties.

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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby jakemoore » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:02 pm

I took foilholios statement to mean

1) a reloadable CL is not that important,

2) CL are bulky in general and can be replaced with something simple

3) if it all goes bad so you gotta release to safety it’s time to wind it up and contemplate the error of your ways

And

4) if you are flying your kite over people in a way that you need to release the kite onto them you are being a dick.
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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby foilholio » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:14 am

Exactly.

And Matteo you should to have a beneficial debate try your best to understand the other persons position. Jakemoore and me disagree on plenty of things, but he has understood me perfectly.

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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby downunder » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:35 pm


Given that there are other people on the planet, and beaches and water are desirable for recreation for the vast majority of them, there will be beach goers at potentially every location you can kite at.
This guy never visited Australia.

Today, 3 foilers, ZERO beach goers on 2km stretch. Its Easter Saturday evening, BBQ and footy for most.

No, no need for quick reload on many occasions/locations. To be fair, fixed rope could be fine.
Use a knife when really needed. One might use a knife anyway in some circumstances. Or not, with fatal consequences.
Somehow we do not practice using a knife, do we. However, it might save your or someone's else's life.

No need for body armor as well, but we all know Matty is big on that ;)

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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby foilholio » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:37 pm

Hey Matteo here is my rebuttal



It's 2019 and this is the "best" release on the market. I am sure Ruben loved the fact he could easy reload after he broke that leg, surely saved some beach goers. You want to endanger beach goers just use any of the many shit releases that can do like that.

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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby Matteo V » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:57 pm

foilholio wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:37 pm
Hey Matteo here is my rebuttal

Vid.

It's 2019 and this is the "best" release on the market. I am sure Ruben loved the fact he could easy reload after he broke that leg, surely saved some beach goers. You want to endanger beach goers just use any of the many shit releases that can do like that.
Perfect example! Now move Ruben and the kite about a half a kite line length upwind of those "beach goers" (I would call them surfers). Dick move to try to kite loop up wind of them?....Yes, please everyone avoid that. But if it happens, before the kite and lines drift over the surfers, reload, RELAUNCH and drag away. Broken leg or not.

And if my leg is broken (compound fracture chumin for sharks, or not), I am 100% POSITIVE I want to reload and drag with the kite in the air, back to shore - as opposed to swimming to the kite as it gets wrecked by the next set and I can't use it anyway to self rescue in with. (hint: body dragging is way faster).

I am still on the side that a reliably re-loadable safety is necessary for safety in kitesurfing. And you made the argument for me with the vid.
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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby Sun » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:05 pm

And if my leg is broken (compound fracture chumin for sharks, or not), I am 100% POSITIVE I want to reload and drag with the kite in the air, back to shore - as opposed to swimming to the kite as it gets wrecked by the next set and I can't use it anyway to self rescue in with. (hint: body dragging is way faster).
That is a very good argument. With an easy reset system, the rider has more options available.

I will concede to the other points though that a reliable release trumps an easy reset release. It does not matter how easy the QR is to reset if it is not one you can rely on staying put when you want it to or releasing only when you want it to.

Glad to see that people are still trying to perfect the system, every new design we learn something from.

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Re: No need for a release system/safety?

Postby Goavegas » Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:00 pm

downunder wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:35 pm

Given that there are other people on the planet, and beaches and water are desirable for recreation for the vast majority of them, there will be beach goers at potentially every location you can kite at.
This guy never visited Australia.

Today, 3 foilers, ZERO beach goers on 2km stretch. Its Easter Saturday evening, BBQ and footy for most.

No, no need for quick reload on many occasions/locations. To be fair, fixed rope could be fine.
Use a knife when really needed. One might use a knife anyway in some circumstances. Or not, with fatal consequences.
Somehow we do not practice using a knife, do we. However, it might save your or someone's else's life.

No need for body armor as well, but we all know Matty is big on that ;)
Too bad the rest of the world kiter’s population don’t live there.Just kidding.


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