Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Forum for kitesurfers
Hugh2
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:38 am
Kiting since: 2005
Local Beach: Central Illinois
Favorite Beaches: Cape Hatteras and Cape Town
Style: freeride
Gear: Best Cabo 6, Naish Pivot 7, 9, and 11, Cabrinha Vector 12, Best Bularoo 16
Long Ocean 134 and 136, Cyclone 140, Fone Surf 5'11", Naish Global 6'0", Slingshot Hoverglide foil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby Hugh2 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:08 am

Back in the early 1980's a friend in Madison, Wisconsin made a canvas on bamboo "kite" like this for wind-driven ice skating with racing skates, it was a lot of fun.

Naish version


Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1220
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby Matteo V » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:07 pm

mikesids wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 am
There's some really ill-informed opinions going on here by people who have already decided this just won't work or won't be enjoyable. If you are actually interested in how this might unfold check out the wing.surf page on Facebook for latest updates and videos. A lot of folks already enjoying themselves, riding swell, foiling one handed etc. A complement to kiting, not going to replace it.
Most of these "ill-informed opinions" are based on the real world experiences of those of us that came from windsurfing. And you last statement about it being a complement to kiting????? Well that was how most windsurfers saw kiting too. Just like with me, most windsurfers did both for a few years, then ditched the windsurfing gear all together. The debate is wether this new sport is going to follow in the footsteps of kitesurfing and prevail, or windsurfing and slowly die out after a good run. The extreme fringes of opinion range from only a few year run of wingsurfing to it replacing and/or taking away new entrants to kitesurfing.

The similarities cannot be ignored if you are forecasting for the future. Nor can the differences be ignored:

1. Windsurfing was limited to high wind speeds for those who wanted to be on smaller boards. Kitesurfing can use a tiny board with a big kite in almost any wind speed. - Kitesurfing wins out, so what is wingsurfing's range without a hydrofoil (hint: worse than windsurfing)

2. Windsurfing was limited to the wind on the water and very small benefit from pumping the sail. Kitesurfing had the wind window and sining the kite was actually the same as pumping a windsurfing sail, though it took no energy input. Kitesurfing wins out, so how do you "pump" a wingsurfin wing?? (hint: with no mast base connection to the board and no wind window, you really can't justify it)

3. Windsurfing had multiple sails and components with a large cost associated with each piece and even larger cost for "all carbon - best components". Kitesurfing can rely on just one bar and a few easily packable kites of. Kitesurfing, for transport ability, cost and storage, and ease of assembly, wins out. Wingsurfing, at it's infant stages, seems to be in line with kitesurfing, but we will have to wait and see what development brings. Will wingsurfing stay as uncomplicated as kiting is now??? I would think it could, but it also could change drastically and morph into a multiple board/gear thing too.


All of these questions add up to an unknown future for wingsurfing. This year should shed some light on whether it has the excitement to take kiters away from kiting. Next year, we should see some lessons pop up and see if new entrants to windsports divide between kiting and wingsurfing. The following year, we should see if wingsurfing has the staying power to match it's hype, and disprove it's naysayers.
These users thanked the author Matteo V for the post:
elguapo (Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:06 pm)
Rating: 10%

juandesooka
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Sooke, BC, Canada
Style: Canada's Kai Lenny (in my mind)
Gear: Ocean Rodeo / Stringy Foil / Slingshot Surf Foil
Brand Affiliation: Open to offers
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby juandesooka » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:40 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:07 pm

All of these questions add up to an unknown future for wingsurfing. This year should shed some light on whether it has the excitement to take kiters away from kiting. Next year, we should see some lessons pop up and see if new entrants to windsports divide between kiting and wingsurfing. The following year, we should see if wingsurfing has the staying power to match it's hype, and disprove it's naysayers.
Yes, will be interesting to see how things develop. I think the foil (r)evolution is changing many things.
  • light wind windsurfing is back! The local WS crew are now frothing about sub-15kt days and complaining it's too windy when it hits 20. Laughable turn of events after years of considering anything less than 25kts as pointess. :lol:
  • I know one kiter in Vancouver who has reverted back to WS foiling as a way to deal with the post-work unreliable winds and the launch problems of the kite ban. He is excited about wing for the same reasons.
  • Sup/surf foiling has already taken me and a buddy away from kiting a bit. On the days with surf and marginal wind, been there done that with either OP 17m or UP 12m, and inevitable swims. Foiling unsurfable waves has become a more rewarding and fun challenge.
  • Adding a wing to this, to get these waves maybe without paddling....that ups the chances even more of giving up some kite sessions. But I recognized we are a freakish minority.
I doubt many kiters will do less kiting with this, as kiters already have a fantastic wind tool. I'd suggest new entrants to windsports are more likely to try this first, at 20% the cost of lessons/kite quiver and close to zero learning curve. Here's an interesting example: yesterday evening I am on my front yard playing with jerry rigging a kite into a wing. My surf buddy drives by with his sup on the roof, on the way to a flat water exercise paddle. Stops and asks what I am up to, then proceeds to explain how he just saw a wingsurf youtube video, was super stoked, thinking of getting one, etc. This is a 30 year surfer, who dabbled in windsurfing 25 years ago, tried flying my trainer kite a few times but didn't catch the bug (too expensive, too much time), and now he's frothing about about possibilities to downwind swells on his sup, or get waves without paddling back,etc. If this guy is stoked, and he's a hardcore surfer who kinda hates on just about everything else, then I suspect there's a LOT of people out there thinking about the possibilities.

For wind newbies, I expect many will start on a wing, come to the realization that in all but perfect conditions they are only using about a quarter of the wind's possibilities, and transition upward to kiting or windsurfing as more effective and efficient wind chasing tools. But they may still wing it on the right days. As I've said all along: another toy in the box, another tool in the quiver.
These users thanked the author juandesooka for the post (total 2):
bigtone667 (Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:40 pm) • Peter_Frank (Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:06 pm)
Rating: 20%

or6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 3:29 pm
Kiting since: 1998
Local Beach: Wijk aan zee, Zandmotor, Hoek
Favorite Beaches: Muriwai NZ, El Medano Tenerife, la Ventana México, Hood River, Portland area, Vancouver Island, Wijk aan Zee, Moulay Bouzerktoun
Style: Waveriding, strictly strapless, soms TT,
Gear: RRD Religion 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9, Appletree Klokhouse Noseless 5'3", Shinn Bronq
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby or6 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:15 am

https://gongsupshop.com/epages/box1707. ... /FOIL/Wing

They must have been reading along 😉

Interestingly: three sizes. Starting at 400!

james
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:18 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: My own
Brand Affiliation: My own
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby james » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:47 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:07 pm
mikesids wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 am
There's some really ill-informed opinions going on here by people who have already decided this just won't work or won't be enjoyable. If you are actually interested in how this might unfold check out the wing.surf page on Facebook for latest updates and videos. A lot of folks already enjoying themselves, riding swell, foiling one handed etc. A complement to kiting, not going to replace it.
Most of these "ill-informed opinions" are based on the real world experiences of those of us that came from windsurfing. And you last statement about it being a complement to kiting????? Well that was how most windsurfers saw kiting too. Just like with me, most windsurfers did both for a few years, then ditched the windsurfing gear all together. The debate is wether this new sport is going to follow in the footsteps of kitesurfing and prevail, or windsurfing and slowly die out after a good run. The extreme fringes of opinion range from only a few year run of wingsurfing to it replacing and/or taking away new entrants to kitesurfing.

The similarities cannot be ignored if you are forecasting for the future. Nor can the differences be ignored:

1. Windsurfing was limited to high wind speeds for those who wanted to be on smaller boards. Kitesurfing can use a tiny board with a big kite in almost any wind speed. - Kitesurfing wins out, so what is wingsurfing's range without a hydrofoil (hint: worse than windsurfing)

2. Windsurfing was limited to the wind on the water and very small benefit from pumping the sail. Kitesurfing had the wind window and sining the kite was actually the same as pumping a windsurfing sail, though it took no energy input. Kitesurfing wins out, so how do you "pump" a wingsurfin wing?? (hint: with no mast base connection to the board and no wind window, you really can't justify it)

3. Windsurfing had multiple sails and components with a large cost associated with each piece and even larger cost for "all carbon - best components". Kitesurfing can rely on just one bar and a few easily packable kites of. Kitesurfing, for transport ability, cost and storage, and ease of assembly, wins out. Wingsurfing, at it's infant stages, seems to be in line with kitesurfing, but we will have to wait and see what development brings. Will wingsurfing stay as uncomplicated as kiting is now??? I would think it could, but it also could change drastically and morph into a multiple board/gear thing too.


All of these questions add up to an unknown future for wingsurfing. This year should shed some light on whether it has the excitement to take kiters away from kiting. Next year, we should see some lessons pop up and see if new entrants to windsports divide between kiting and wingsurfing. The following year, we should see if wingsurfing has the staying power to match it's hype, and disprove it's naysayers.

Just for the record then matty

You actually have zero, no, nada experience of wingsurfing but still want to tell those that have they are wrong.

Brilliant.
These users thanked the author james for the post:
Matteo V (Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:15 pm)
Rating: 10%

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1220
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby Matteo V » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:13 pm

james wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:47 am
Just for the record then matty

You actually have zero, no, nada experience of wingsurfing but still want to tell those that have they are wrong.

Brilliant.
james, I have stated before that my experience was with the KiteWing from back when I started into the wind sports. I actually owned a KiteWing Rage 55+ (purchased new), and used it extensively on land/snow. At the same time, I was experimenting with:

1. KiteWing on snow with skis and snowboard
2. KiteWing on land with MBS Comp95 and homemade landboards
3. Kitewing with ice runners (mounted to homemade landboard nd MBS Comp95) on frozen lakes
4. KiteWing with homemade longboard skateboards

5. Windsurfing sail on MBS Comp95 and homemade landboards
6. Windsurfing sail on snowboard
7. Windsurfing sail on sledge (2-4 skis mounted below a deck)
8. Windsurfing sail on ice runners (mounted to homemade landboard nd MBS Comp95) on frozen lakes
9. Windsurfing sail on homemade longboard skateboards

10. Non-depower traction kites, trainer kites, and a C-kite on land, water, and snow with all of the above boards except the sledge (only really usable with a windsurfing sail)

So I found out pretty early (about 10 years ago) the workings of at least a rigid wing. But you are correct in stating that I do not have experience with the new inflatable ones. And may I go out on a limb and make an assumption that without a bridle system or a rigid frame on the new inflatable type of wing, there will be some decrease in efficiency? Yes that is an assumption, but that assumption is soundly based in physics.

So, given my experience with the KiteWing, I came to understand the advantages and disadvantages of the concept of a hand held wing on many different medias with varying resistance (friction). And though I was nearly ready to purchase the new KiteWing made for water (had flotation and was larger at 7.5m?), my experience and understanding of the concept steered me away from that, and more towards kiteboarding. Personally, I have never seen nor do I know anyone that ever used the larger water version of the KiteWing made for the water. So it is very much apparent that the concept was a failure given the current offerings of longboards and SUP boards (no appreciable development of hydrofoils at the time).

And here are some of the reasons why:

A. The 5.5m sail size of the Kitewing gave it a good top end (up to 40knots for 100kg rider), but no low end for light winds or high resistance media such as deep snow or water.

B. Due to it's geometry, the kitewing does not transfer all of it's lift into horizontal motion like a windsurfing sail. While this allows slower speeds (depower) by putting the wing directly above you, it does not allow a low end power for things like water starting or initial movement while in grass (on a landboard). Both a windsurfing sail that is more vertical, and a kite that is more vertical when on normal length lines on the side of the window, has more sideways pull.

C. The geometry of the KiteWing not being attached to the board does not allow large sized sails due to the tips of the KiteWing hitting the media you are riding over. Read that as when the wing is put on the side of you for maximum pull sideways, the tip hits the water or the land/snow. As you increase in sail size, you increase this problem to where you would need to increase the dihedral shape of the entire wing. Increasing the dihedral to compensate, reduces the lower portion of the wings ability to generate forward motion while increasing it's sensitivity to over sheeting and thus too much upward pull and instability.

D. The height (and height vs weight) of the rider is also influential to the possible range of sizes that can be used with a hand held wing. This limit does not exist in kitesurfing and did not exist to any appreciable degree in windsurfing. In windsurfing, the sail being mounted to the board meant that the tip could never hit the media you are riding over. The line length of a kite allows the angle to the waters surface to be very small without the tip hitting the water - which brings up point E.

E. Obviously, a kite has access to winds higher aloft. But you have to really compare 2 pictures of a windsurfer vs a wingsurfer to see that the windsurfer has more sail higher off the water than a wingsurfer. So not only can a windsurfer utilize larger sized sails, those larger sized sails are further from the water, thus able to access higher winds aloft.



So that is a pretty much a comprehensive examination of the handheld wing concept from back when there were still some viable patents on the concept. It went nowhere back then. But many "more current" factors such as the development of hydrofoils, and kiteboarding bans, could allow this to become a slight bit more successful than the KiteWing concept from 10+ years ago.

And thank you james, for allowing me to clarify. I do feel as though I have stated the above before, in a shorter form. Maybe look through my past posts on this. Should this not be enough background in handheld wings for you to give me some credit to my predictions, then you don't have to.
These users thanked the author Matteo V for the post:
juandesooka (Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:54 pm)
Rating: 10%

juandesooka
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:05 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Sooke, BC, Canada
Style: Canada's Kai Lenny (in my mind)
Gear: Ocean Rodeo / Stringy Foil / Slingshot Surf Foil
Brand Affiliation: Open to offers
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby juandesooka » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:56 pm

Informative post thanks Matteo
Though I still want to try for myself. :-) foil seems to be the big difference maker....for sup foiling i am hopeful this may open up some fun possibilities

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1220
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby Matteo V » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:44 pm

juandesooka wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:56 pm
Informative post thanks Matteo
Though I still want to try for myself. :-) foil seems to be the big difference maker....for sup foiling i am hopeful this may open up some fun possibilities
Definitely give it a go! I enjoyed my KiteWing, but just could not justify hauling it around when a kite and windsurfing gear did all that the KiteWing did. Now that I pretty much exclusively kite, maybe there would be a niche for a "stringless kite wingythingy" at 40knot windspeeds on the snow. And I would love to hit up a demo if they ever have them out in Oregon. Maybe I still have my KiteWing skills from way back when. Also, I would just like to know what difference in feel the inflatable structure gives the wing. Obviously, my assumptions could be wrong.

But as a former "try any windythingy" guy, I am still going to stick to my predictions that no significant market will be taken from either windsurfing or kitesurfing over the next decade. But I could see some SUP'ers and maybe even some surfers dabble more in it.

What ever your experience, let us know!

james
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 701
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2004 2:18 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: My own
Brand Affiliation: My own
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby james » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:59 pm

So I was correct no experience of the kite wings in their current form yet still being the expert.

😂
These users thanked the author james for the post (total 2):
Matteo V (Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:54 pm) • Jfoil (Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:49 am)
Rating: 20%

Jfoil
Rare Poster
Posts: 37
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:27 pm
Kiting since: 14
Local Beach: Kanaha
Style: Surfboard waves & foiling
Gear: Surf board & 5,6,8m kites
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Re: Wingsurfing - Intel - forum topic?

Postby Jfoil » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:47 am

:!:
james wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:59 pm
So I was correct no experience of the kite wings in their current form yet still being the expert.

😂
Exactly! Not the same as the old ones! The hydrofoil is the game changer for the wings.
These users thanked the author Jfoil for the post:
james (Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:24 am)
Rating: 10%


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], ThickAir and 11 guests

cron