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What force turns a twintip?

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sergei Scotland
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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby sergei Scotland » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:53 am

I guess my previous post above kind of supports Matteo's view that varying edging might be primary method of controlling direction in kitesurfing. And also that this way of control is very similar to how one controls a skateboard!

It must be very easy to learn then.
Who knows why I am struggling to ride any significant distance for the last 10+ sessions 😂 Everyone says it will "click" eventually! May be knowing that I am effectively riding a skateboard will help me?

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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby downunder » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:19 am

No.

It won't :) Unless you did ride a skateboard with a kite. Like this:

viewtopic.php?f=200&t=2402190
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sergei Scotland (Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:24 pm)
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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby rynhardt » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:13 am

sergei Scotland wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:53 am
I guess my previous post above kind of supports Matteo's view that varying edging might be primary method of controlling direction in kitesurfing. And also that this way of control is very similar to how one controls a skateboard!

It must be very easy to learn then.
Who knows why I am struggling to ride any significant distance for the last 10+ sessions 😂 Everyone says it will "click" eventually! May be knowing that I am effectively riding a skateboard will help me?
It might be worthwhile to spend some time at a wakepark and learn just the board control. I see there's one in Glasgow.
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sergei Scotland (Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:24 pm)
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Herman
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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby Herman » Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:59 am

Hi sergie! I have just realized that you are not thinking about this because you are learning to ride and it is not just an intellectual exercise. My apologies! Imho thinking how the set up works will be a major distraction in the learning phase. The brain simply cannot think quickly enough on an intellectual level to control the motor skills required to ride. It has to do it by feel and experience (so called muscle memory). If you think hard about what is happening as you walk you will probably fall over. Just riding a TT is probably only a tad more difficult than walking but people tend to forget how much effort and practice that took to achieve, and you did not achieve it by analysing the mechanics of the process. The old windsurfing expression to cover this was "you need time on water"!
In the initial stages just think more pressure on backfoot it turns into wind and stops. To keep going put pressure on the front foot to stop the board turning into wind. If you are thinking deeper than this you are probably inhibiting the learning experience your brain needs during water time. Good luck! If you have any direct questions on riding for me feel free to ask as I am off the water for the next few days!
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sergei Scotland (Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:24 pm)
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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby Herman » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:29 am

Sergie. If during your sessions you are going a few metres then crashing and expending a lot of energy recovering do this instead. Lay back in the water more instead of curling up to water start. Edge as hard as you comfortably can and simply fly the kite back and forth. As you do this you will start to get a feel for control. Then start diving the kite a little harder and track a little in one direction, Next fly it across the window and change direction. You can do this exercise in less wind than a beginner needs to ride. Ideally you should be able to do this easily before you actually try to ride!
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sergei Scotland (Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:25 pm)
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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby Herman » Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:12 am

Sergie! Skateboard style steering only truly comes into effect when you can plane fast and go from heel to toeside edge. It will be a while before you have to worry about that. Skateboards are a useful cross training tool at a later stage but not that helpful in the initial stages for water. Perversely the bit you are stuck on is what makes it probably easier to learn to the basics of landboarding rather than kitesurfing. Oddly for water TT you learn slide control first then carving, and for landboarding it is the other way round. I bet those boys at push kiting are at a stage where they can turn their consciousness off and just let it happen without much conscious thought at all!
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sergei Scotland (Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:34 pm)
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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby sergei Scotland » Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:18 pm

Herman wrote:
Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:59 am
Hi sergie! I have just realized that you are not thinking about this because you are learning to ride and it is not just an intellectual exercise. My apologies! Imho thinking how the set up works will be a major distraction in the learning phase. The brain simply cannot think quickly enough on an intellectual level to control the motor skills required to ride. It has to do it by feel and experience (so called muscle memory).
Thanks and no problem. I know what you mean about muscle memory and reflexes against logical thinking. But I also think that during learning understanding minor details helps ti get reflexes to establish.
I think I was jumping topics a bit. I agree that I will not be executing edging /carving turns for a year.
But I still think that quick changes in edging are primary way everyone keeps balance on a board when a wave hits or a gust pulls you over the board. In some respect it happens without rider doing anything anyway. For example when I am falling backwards and have my ankle locked at the same angle then without me doing anything edging increases, reducing downwind slippage speed and helping me not to fall back. Actually what probably happens we are trained by our whole life to move weight onto our heels when falling backward, which in kitesurfing translates into increasing edging.
This process happens probably 10 times a second and you are not aware of it happening because it is so intuitive. And because we are trained to do that since we learned to stand up it also happens very quickly and changes are very small and invisible.
But this is a much easier way of keeping balance and it is exactly the same as skateboard or snowboard or just standing on a rocking platform...
Somehow I don't think that anyone loads back or front foot when falling backward or forward 10cm on 2 feet. This would require years of training 😂 especially for me 😂
I guess this is not what I was talking about in my posts, but IMHO understanding this way of micro balance corrections is important to ride in tricky conditions.
After all changing weight distribution causes a turn of the board and only when turn happened there is any balancing force to stop me falling backward.
Kite power change is probably faster, but probably not as fast as required. Change of edging directs the lifting force and is instant.
Obviously I don't have enough experience to be 100% sure in anything, so the bit above might be completely wrong!

For gradual change of direction I am sure I can take your word for loading back or front foot and this is what everyone says.
Hope you get better soon, thank for the trick lying on the water and other advice.
I am not so bad going right - managed several 100m runs even last year, but struggling going left (not my natural stance). Oh well bought a 17 m so hope to be on the water at least once a week!

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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby Herman » Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:10 pm

Sergie. We all use are brains slightly differently and you will probably look back on this once you are riding well and never know what actually made it click for you! Did you understand the point about slide turning and carving being totally different skills and feelings?
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sergei Scotland (Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:39 pm)
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sergei Scotland
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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby sergei Scotland » Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:38 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:31 pm
sergei Scotland wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:56 am
Question for someone who knows physics of TT planing:
there is not an obvious force turning TT downwind. Upwind is easy as kite rotates you upwind all the time through the hook plus any rocker does the same. On the other hand it is not obvious which physical force actually rotates board to go downwind especially during waterstart and transitions but also simple changing directions for example a carving turn downwind into toeside.
Anyone can explain? Ta!
Complicate things much?
If you know what makes a tt go upwind
And you decrease that same force what happens?
It goes less upwind.
What happens if you decrease it further?
It goes straight.
What happens if you decrease it further? :o
Yes, the force making TT gow upwind or even stay in the same place is obviously is part of the board lift/pressure directed upwind - caused by edging - correct?
So decreasing edging will cause me go less upwind or downwind as (constant) lift will not be directed upwind so much. So that upwind vector of the force becomes smaller.
So board slips downwind more and is rotated by the rear fins (basically board seem to point in the direction of the movement relative to the water all the time).
Is this what you are trying to say?

Obviously the other way to increase the upwind force is increase angle of attack of the board to increase total lift, i.e. move centre of mass back to increase it and forward to decrease it .
Which is what most people would say one should do.

What make this picture complicated is that increasing edging makes board to sink which obviously changes centre of pressure position (forward and across the board too).
Which require moving of centre of mass to compensate as well.

One thought against edging is that when edging very aggressively (60 degrees for example) increase of edging angle only causes small increase of the upwind vector. In this situation second method probably works much better then edging angle. I mean most of the force is already upwind at 60 degrees so doe snot change much when I change to 70 degrees.

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Re: What force turns a twintip?

Postby Herman » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:32 pm

Sergie. In my experience when a novice is told to edge harder they naturally weight the back heel and this makes them turn upwind. Similarly when they are told to flatten the board off they naturally put more weight on the front toes and this makes them bear away. This can take you to a good level. Eventually when you can ride well you will be able to revisit board trim to get more out of the rail and use it more optimally to get upwind.
When you come to do your first turns just fly the kite up, lower your bum into the water and water start in the new direction. Once you have mastered that turn by putting loads of pressure on the backfoot as you fly the kite up. Firstly you will feel the board carve into wind as you increase its angle of attack to the water, as your velocity decreases water flow across the board slows and the back end of the board will slide out pointing to a broad reach in the new direction. You can then dive the kite and ride off on the new tack. This will be a real "EUREKA" moment for you. It is well worth persaveverring!
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