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Duotone 2020

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Leon van Bergen
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Leon van Bergen » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:07 pm

alexeyga wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:53 pm
dewwy wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:18 pm

Compared to duotone, north hasn't done a whole lot on social media. Curious to see how the european market will develop, especially in the netherlands/germany.
Compared to everybody else, doodle-shoondel has done way too much on social media to picture them selves as a needy bitch who's trying too hard... All while putting exactly zero effort in making their very unattractively-named proposition any more interesting for end buyers. IMHO the inertia of having a developed sales network will only get them so far.

And I won't speak for everybody, but when I get something (like idiotic brand name) forced down my throat on social medias, from every possible ange, a gazillion times per day - I tend to develop a vomiting syndrome. So dear Duotone, thanks but I'll spend my money on another Epic kite before I'd even consider buying anything from you.
Haha you are really laughable. I bought the duotone rebels because I bought the North rebels before, just like many others and all without social media. Brands cannot push anything through your throat on social media, you really let that happen yourself.

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby cor » Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:55 pm

alexeyga wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:53 pm
Compared to everybody else, doodle-shoondel has done way too much on social media to picture them selves as a needy bitch who's trying too hard... All while putting exactly zero effort in making their very unattractively-named proposition any more interesting for end buyers. IMHO the inertia of having a developed sales network will only get them so far.

And I won't speak for everybody, but when I get something (like idiotic brand name) forced down my throat on social medias, from every possible ange, a gazillion times per day - I tend to develop a vomiting syndrome. So dear Duotone, thanks but I'll spend my money on another Epic kite before I'd even consider buying anything from you.
Sounds rather like you spend too much time on social media and also, there is an unsubscribe button for everything you are not interested in or if you just don't like the name which seems to be your main issue with that brand.

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Mo » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:22 pm

cor wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:55 pm
alexeyga wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:53 pm
Compared to everybody else, doodle-shoondel has done way too much on social media to picture them selves as a needy bitch who's trying too hard... All while putting exactly zero effort in making their very unattractively-named proposition any more interesting for end buyers. IMHO the inertia of having a developed sales network will only get them so far.

And I won't speak for everybody, but when I get something (like idiotic brand name) forced down my throat on social medias, from every possible ange, a gazillion times per day - I tend to develop a vomiting syndrome. So dear Duotone, thanks but I'll spend my money on another Epic kite before I'd even consider buying anything from you.
Sounds rather like you spend too much time on social media and also, there is an unsubscribe button for everything you are not interested in or if you just don't like the name which seems to be your main issue with that brand.
Most probably the guy doesn’t kite 😂 -
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alexeyga
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby alexeyga » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:51 pm

Oh, I'm sorry fellas, I haven't realized that I'd be pinching a sore spot. Do you feel deficient owning gear with a brand name on it which sounds like pig burping? Do you want to talk about it?

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Dan-at-Duotone
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:59 pm

On the one hand I understand that we've been hitting it hard with marketing over the past year and it's amping up now. If you're following all of our team riders and various national/international accounts you've probably seen a lot of our content and I can understand that it can get to feel heavy-handed.

On the other hand, although I don't personally see the upcoming North as our biggest competitor... as I've said before having a big yachting corporation take an interest in our sport can only help grow the sport as a whole... I still see a ton of confusion in the larger market. I have local kiter friends still coming up to me asking if I have a new job because my van now sports a big Duotone sticker. And this is Hood River, a bit of an epicenter for the industry.
I have also heard from a few retailers who, after meeting with the NKB guys, tell me that their basic strategy will be "confuse the customer". They are a new company to the kiteboarding world but they are using a well established brand name, obviously they will try to capitalize on that.

Against that backdrop I don't think it's out-of-line for us to try to get as much information out there as possible. It reminds me of the Syms commercials I used to see when I worked on Wall Street "an educated consumer is our best customer". We want to educate every kiter on what is happening with our company and our brand.

On top of that, realize that if you're reading this, you're almost certainly better informed about industry happenings than the average kiter. There are a lot of kiters who do not use online forums and who still have not heard about this brand reshuffle. If you have advice on how to reach these guys better than using team riders, social media, magazines, forums, etc please let me know.

-Dan

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby wrogu » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:26 pm

Dan-at-Duotone wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:59 pm

On top of that, realize that if you're reading this, you're almost certainly better informed about industry happenings than the average kiter. There are a lot of kiters who do not use online forums and who still have not heard about this brand reshuffle. If you have advice on how to reach these guys better than using team riders, social media, magazines, forums, etc please let me know.

-Dan
Sell, sell, sell more kites. More kites at a spot, more recognition :wink:



P.S. lower prices, instead of increasing them. No royalties to be paid, yet prices went up again.

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Dan-at-Duotone
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:48 pm

In case you're actually curious on the pricing thing (boring post ahead):

We would love to lower prices. Our retail prices are directly based on the landed cost of finished products. Budgets for Marketing/R&D/etc come out of the other end; they are allocated by brand/category based on revenue from the previous year. I have no information on what we paid in royalties for brand names in the past, I've only been told they were an insignificant part of the cost.

Just to give an idea why our retail pricing (and most others in this industry) have trended up every year over the past 20 years (FYI, I haven't studied this stuff in depth in 20 years, if I'm wrong please don't kill me, this is just what I've been told/seen)...

A. Cost of labor in Sri Lanka and China have risen significantly every year since we started manufacturing there. Plus we try to pay above average wages in part to maintain employees for QC purposes. Cost to manufacture goods has risen significantly across many industries in large part because of this.

B. Every year we make more efforts to be more ecologically friendly. Our industry is by its nature bad for the environment but we're doing what we can to minimize damage... For 2019 all our surfboards will ship with 100% recyclable packaging (zero plastic). Also for 2019 we are going to be carbon neutral for all our kite gear. Carbon credits are going towards a hydroelectric plant in Sri Lanka where our kites are produced. All our twintips are already being produced at Capita's Mothership, a 100% hydroelectric powered, zero-carbon footprint factory in Austria. We could manufacture cheaper by bypassing these kinds of efforts but as the biggest kiteboarding manufacturer we want to do what we can without (hopefully) pricing ourselves out of the market.

C. Cost of shipping... New US policies attempting to hinder imports from Asia have driven up container freight costs. BDI has been trending up for the past 3 years and our forecasts for these costs are that they will continue to increase.

At least two of the above three items I think most of us can agree are for the better, even if it ends up costing us a bit more for a new kite.

All that being said, we are constantly working with our factories and suppliers to try to make our production as cheap and efficient as possible to keep our costs down.

In case you were actually curious...

-Dan
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wrogu
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby wrogu » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:17 pm

Dan-at-Duotone wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:48 pm
In case you're actually curious on the pricing thing (boring post ahead):

We would love to lower prices. Our retail prices are directly based on the landed cost of finished products. Budgets for Marketing/R&D/etc come out of the other end; they are allocated by brand/category based on revenue from the previous year. I have no information on what we paid in royalties for brand names in the past, I've only been told they were an insignificant part of the cost.

Just to give an idea why our retail pricing (and most others in this industry) have trended up every year over the past 20 years (FYI, I haven't studied this stuff in depth in 20 years, if I'm wrong please don't kill me, this is just what I've been told/seen)...

A. Cost of labor in Sri Lanka and China have risen significantly every year since we started manufacturing there. Plus we try to pay above average wages in part to maintain employees for QC purposes. Cost to manufacture goods has risen significantly across many industries in large part because of this.

B. Every year we make more efforts to be more ecologically friendly. Our industry is by its nature bad for the environment but we're doing what we can to minimize damage... For 2019 all our surfboards will ship with 100% recyclable packaging (zero plastic). Also for 2019 we are going to be carbon neutral for all our kite gear. Carbon credits are going towards a hydroelectric plant in Sri Lanka where our kites are produced. All our twintips are already being produced at Capita's Mothership, a 100% hydroelectric powered, zero-carbon footprint factory in Austria. We could manufacture cheaper by bypassing these kinds of efforts but as the biggest kiteboarding manufacturer we want to do what we can without (hopefully) pricing ourselves out of the market.

C. Cost of shipping... New US policies attempting to hinder imports from Asia have driven up container freight costs. BDI has been trending up for the past 3 years and our forecasts for these costs are that they will continue to increase.

At least two of the above three items I think most of us can agree are for the better, even if it ends up costing us a bit more for a new kite.

All that being said, we are constantly working with our factories and suppliers to try to make our production as cheap and efficient as possible to keep our costs down.

In case you were actually curious...

-Dan
Hey Dan,

I guess all of us are curious :) At least I am and I highly apprecieate your posts and insight you give us. Actually you are one of the top brand reps here! :claps:

It is not only Duotone but also other brands that are expensive already and getting more expensive. I rememebr Core being the most expensive brand, by a large margin, now their pricing is in line with other brands. Including duotone.
And despite my career development, pay rise etc. kites became harder to finance for me. Of course, other expenses appeared ... just saying ;)


P.S. My quiver is 4 years or older now. Time to try new dices this weekend. I might even buy some ;)
Last edited by wrogu on Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby andikite » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:35 pm

Dan-at-Duotone wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:48 pm
In case you're actually curious on the pricing thing (boring post ahead):

We would love to lower prices. Our retail prices are directly based on the landed cost of finished products. Budgets for Marketing/R&D/etc come out of the other end; they are allocated by brand/category based on revenue from the previous year. I have no information on what we paid in royalties for brand names in the past, I've only been told they were an insignificant part of the cost.

Just to give an idea why our retail pricing (and most others in this industry) have trended up every year over the past 20 years (FYI, I haven't studied this stuff in depth in 20 years, if I'm wrong please don't kill me, this is just what I've been told/seen)...

A. Cost of labor in Sri Lanka and China have risen significantly every year since we started manufacturing there. Plus we try to pay above average wages in part to maintain employees for QC purposes. Cost to manufacture goods has risen significantly across many industries in large part because of this.

B. Every year we make more efforts to be more ecologically friendly. Our industry is by its nature bad for the environment but we're doing what we can to minimize damage... For 2019 all our surfboards will ship with 100% recyclable packaging (zero plastic). Also for 2019 we are going to be carbon neutral for all our kite gear. Carbon credits are going towards a hydroelectric plant in Sri Lanka where our kites are produced. All our twintips are already being produced at Capita's Mothership, a 100% hydroelectric powered, zero-carbon footprint factory in Austria. We could manufacture cheaper by bypassing these kinds of efforts but as the biggest kiteboarding manufacturer we want to do what we can without (hopefully) pricing ourselves out of the market.

C. Cost of shipping... New US policies attempting to hinder imports from Asia have driven up container freight costs. BDI has been trending up for the past 3 years and our forecasts for these costs are that they will continue to increase.

At least two of the above three items I think most of us can agree are for the better, even if it ends up costing us a bit more for a new kite.

All that being said, we are constantly working with our factories and suppliers to try to make our production as cheap and efficient as possible to keep our costs down.

In case you were actually curious...

-Dan
Ok we agree, but 2020 prices are 4% higher than 2019. It's reason enough to justify this increase? :cry:

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Dan-at-Duotone
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Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:06 pm

We in the US are dealing with very low inflation, but it's still 1-2%, so that's almost half of the increase right there. Labor prices in China have been increasing at a pretty steady 8% annually for the past 10 years
For shipping, BDI went from 500 in 2015 to 1700 this year. And remember that we're dealing with forecasts as well, with trade tensions what they are I'm guessing that we're forecasting increased difficulties/costs in production/shipping/importing.

When you consider those numbers one could argue that we're lowering our retail relative to input costs. Like I said, we're always working with factories/suppliers looking for how to improve cost efficiency without sacrificing qualtiy. People love to demonize companies for raising prices, claiming we're fleecing the customer, implying that we're basing our pricing on exactly how much we think we can get the customer to pay. The truth is that we (and every other kite company) work as hard as we can to keep prices down.

As a fairly avid mountain biker I understand all too well the pain/frustration with watching prices go up... Bikes are INSANELY expensive now, and prices go up every year (significantly more than they have for kites), but I appreciate all the small improvements made year-on-year and as much as I hate parting with close to 10 grand for a toy that I'm basically going to destroy, I generally reup every year because dammit I love my toys.

-Dan


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