Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Duotone 2020

Forum for kitesurfers
User avatar
SurfboY
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 604
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 3:53 pm
Kiting since: 2004
Local Beach: Brouwersdam/Vrouwenpolder/Oostvoorne/Krabbendijke, NL
Surfers Paradise, BE
Favorite Beaches: El Coche, Ras Sudr, Zanzibar
Style: Big Air, Freestyle
Gear: Naish kites, Nobile board, Mystic harnass and O’neill wetsuit.
Location: Belgium
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby SurfboY » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:13 pm

Dan, thanks for getting more into the lines. I guess Duotone has a reason for not putting better lines,
which we’ll never know. I can only hope for better lines in 2021, because I really liked the Dice!
These users thanked the author SurfboY for the post:
Dan-at-Duotone (Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:17 am)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1188
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 59 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby purdyd » Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:17 pm

Dan,

In regards to lines. First off a number of people, me included, have replaced our lines but not bought from North. That might skew your numbers.

I do know one kite school who told me they replace the front depower line annually. As I have done. I don’t know what your figures are on front leader line sales.

The k tuefelberg kite lines are not anywhere close to being top quality in terms of stretch, breaking strength, or construction compared to your competitors and yet the click bar is the most expensive bar on the market.

The lines are a very open weave with a very rough finish.

Just laying them next to liros dc pro and there is no comparison in the quality.

And the color coding is a small ribbon in the line itself versus lines that have an integrated color.

I can say personally after a year of use, the kite lines had faded to almost white and showed fraying near the kite. I presume from rubbing against each other when I lay out the lines, also, the unsheathed loops at the kite end seem fairly fragile and susceptible to snagging and fiber breakage.

And I have never seen line shrinkage to the degree I’ve seen on these lines.

This has nothing to do with breakage this is how I perceive the quality of the lines, I have never in 19 years I’d kiting seen these issues of this degree with kite lines.

As far as fraying and breaking, I’ve seen some of the pictures on the web and my guess is that salt is involved. If you are kiting in the gorge all the time, I doubt it is much of an issue. And a lot of launches don’t have what I would call sand either.

Just my observations.
These users thanked the author purdyd for the post (total 3):
Dan-at-Duotone (Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:15 am) • SurfboY (Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:04 am) • POACHER (Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:34 am)
Rating: 30%

User avatar
Dan-at-Duotone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:09 am
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: The Gorge
Favorite Beaches: Crazy Beaches
Style: Kooky
Gear: yes
Brand Affiliation: Sales/Marketing/Service for Duotone/Ion in North America
Location: Hood River
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Contact:

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:05 pm

Purdyd-

Thanks for the objective feedback. This is the kind of thing that the guys at international pay attention to and it helps my arguments that they need to address this situation regardless of what their numbers and feedback tell them about our lines. I really appreciate the honest and direct approach and the constructive criticism.

As far as comparing lines according to feel, I'm not sure that's fair. We use an 8 strand weave that has advantages and disadvantages when compared to a 12-strand weave, but definitely feels courser and stiffer. As far as that 'colored ribbon', it's a patented piece of monofilament woven in strictly to limit memory (when bent once, lines tend to weaken and attract more bends at the same point making them quicker to fail at that point, these colored bits are meant to mitigate this, Teufelberger call it Trace Technology and it's another reason our lines feel stiff). I also know that Teufelberger offers 12-strand weaves with Trace Technology in, and I know that we've looked at using this line but I know that it's almost twice as heavy and I'm guessing it's considerably more expensive. According to all our internal tests our current lines maintain their original length better and have less memory than most other lines on the market, but I fully admit that I'm just believing the guys at B&M when they say this. Though this also jives with what I hear from schools/shops; I have several schools who use multiple brands in multiple different locations who all tell me that our lines seem to hold up at least as well as other brands (one who uses Cab, another who uses Naish, and a third who uses LF). All have told me they replace lines about once a year for all these brands, but that ours tend to need less tuning and show no difference in breakage rate.

All that being said, I'm a Duotone guy, I hear all the pitches from the guys at Duotone, and my dealers and schools could easily be blowing smoke up my ass. I know you're an honest guy and this is an honest review, and I know that at every meeting lots of distributors have brought up this online beating we've been taking, and though all of them are as confused as I am, we still all have told the production team they need to do something, so hopefully some sort of line upgrade is in the works. Realize also that, like material for our kites, we like to test the hell out of something before committing to it, and then due to our size, once we commit, it can still take nearly a year to produce the raw material we need for our kites/bars before we can begin producing.

So: I believe you that your lines are showing more wear than you've seen with other bars and that they're stretching (or shrinking) more than you've seen before. I know that some people are unhappy with our lines, I know that we can improve our line quality. I also know that Click bar lines are the same lines we've been using for the last 5 or 6 years with our Quad bar, and which people seemed completely happy with until a year or two ago when online complaints started piling up, and I know that our replacement rate has been unchanged through those 5/6 years, and I know lots of retailers and schools who tell me our lines are great, so I know there are 2 sides to the story.

And finally, I know that the guys at international, even if they insist that our lines are great, are aware of the complaints and are actively working on it.

For everyone that has stuck with us even if you're unhappy with the lines, I honestly appreciate your patience and loyalty. I've done my best to work with any individual complaints that arise and I'll continue to do so in the future.

-Dan
These users thanked the author Dan-at-Duotone for the post (total 2):
purdyd (Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:09 am) • SurfboY (Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:03 am)
Rating: 20%

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1188
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 59 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby purdyd » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:25 am

Dan,

Appreciate the response. You are always professional and represent Duotone well.

Ok so here is the view of the loops at the kite end after a year. Notice the color of the fifth line, which is the never used 2m extension.
5EDE05B3-BF95-4C15-8F9F-B697419D2802.jpeg
405BC24E-C92C-4E24-B3E7-7A2CEA38258A.jpeg
These users thanked the author purdyd for the post:
Dan-at-Duotone (Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:57 am)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1188
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 59 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby purdyd » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:58 am

As far as comparing lines according to feel, I'm not sure that's fair. We use an 8 strand weave that has advantages and disadvantages when compared to a 12-strand weave, but definitely feels courser and stiffer.
I’m not sure what the advantage of 8 over 12 strand is. As I understand it, 12 strand is superior for sewing and splices.

I don’t find the line to be any stiffer as far as bending. But the Duotone line is coarser and expands under compression significantly more than the competition. My experience is the trace becomes loose with time as you can see above and probably doesn’t help with keeping the braid tight.

And the coarser line tends to saw against itself more than the competition.
62A1D51A-E312-4EA3-8CAE-931D6C67E4E2.jpeg
Attachments
9ADD3B5C-FB80-4CC3-8115-326D4CFC64B1.jpeg

User avatar
Dan-at-Duotone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 471
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:09 am
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: The Gorge
Favorite Beaches: Crazy Beaches
Style: Kooky
Gear: yes
Brand Affiliation: Sales/Marketing/Service for Duotone/Ion in North America
Location: Hood River
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Contact:

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:20 am

I mean, maybe this is part of the problem... I think those look like they're in fine shape for a year of reasonably hard use, and I'd have no qualms with continuing to use those lines, though I'd definitely take a look at the safety line where it enters the PU depower line and I'd check the leader lines where they wear against a pulley every time you power/depower, and as long as I was in there I'd probably just replace those leaders since they're cheap, and then I'd continue using that bar (assuming this is a Click bar). There are no obvious broken strands, the fraying isn't excessive, the monofil bumping out is just a sign that it's still doing its job trying to keep the line straight.

I say this is part of the problem because maybe I'm out of touch with how year-old lines should look... Maybe other lines have just improved so that after a year of regular abuse they look fresher than that? And again, I think looks can be deceiving... Like I said, 8 strand lines look different and less smooth than 12 strand, but I think these lines look ready for another 6 months at least, though I'd keep an eye on them for sure.

I'm assuming this is the end of the line where it attaches to the pigtail, and you're not attaching those loops directly to the kite, right?

Honest question, am I crazy thinking that a year of abuse should leave lines looking about like that? On my mountain bike I replace shifter cables/housing on my bike probably every six months. The drivetrain after 12-18 months. I rebuild my hubs every year. Replace my bearings (bb, headset, and frame) about every year, or whenever they start squeaking which is generally sooner, plus I lube the chain about every other ride. Don't get me started on my moto or my truck. I think wear items wear and require monitoring and regular care and occasional replacement, and I think your flying lines are wearing at a reasonable rate but are still good to go, but I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong.

-Dan

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1188
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 59 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby purdyd » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:18 am

Dan the problem is I have not seen wear like this on kite lines, ever. That fuzz is broken strands and when I see a lot of color change, that usually means UV damage.

And I don’t leave my bar out. I kite or put it away.

And yes used with pigtails. And just changing the pigtails makes you wonder as the line seems very delicate when you loosen the loop.

Would I have been ok on the lines a bit longer? probably. But that is not the point. They are showing signs of wear worse than other kite lines.

This is what I expect to see in the picture below. No or virtually no fuzz. Used constantly for the last 5 months which is the heart of my season.

I expect to see some fading in color especially around the ends of at the kite as they rub against each other when you sort out the lines. I do not expect to see a lot of fuzz.

Again, I have not seen this type of wear with fuzz and fading of the entire line in my 19 years.

Not to mention these are not as strong or stiff as say the new sk99 lines which a lot of companies are using, including north.

So again, they wear faster, shrink more, discolor faster, are not as stiff, and not as strong as offering from other kite companies. And they apparently cost just as much.

If you bought new brake pads and they wore out in 3 months instead of 6 months like your old ones, and squealed more and didn’t stop as well as your previous pair and cost more would you think that was normal?

Liros dc pro in red eurocord black and white
5A83ABFA-7960-47AE-BE07-D6415F4B2C05.jpeg
These users thanked the author purdyd for the post (total 2):
Leon van Bergen (Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:40 am) • POACHER (Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:37 am)
Rating: 20%

User avatar
omg
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:58 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby omg » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:22 am

I can only agree with purdyd, 100% true. I changed my clickbar lines to Liros DC Pro after about 6-8 months (in non-salt water use) and I do take care of my stuff, it's my money. Have I known better, I might have thought about OR bar instead due to better lines? These are very expensive bars, and the setup should reflect the price.
These users thanked the author omg for the post:
Leon van Bergen (Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:40 am)
Rating: 10%

ichabod
Medium Poster
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:35 pm
Kiting since: 2
Gear: kite, strings, short wooden plank
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby ichabod » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:00 pm

Yes I think it's the audacity to charge top tier prices for second rate lines that doesn't reflect well on the brand (or the rest of it's products). For the price of these bars I'd expect the lines to be gold coated. Having had wear issues on all of my previous North bars, I was all set to buy a click bar this season had the lines been upgraded as rumoured but am going to leave it another year or go with another brand.

I think the trend of carbon boards/harnesses etc shows that some people are prepared to pay large sums just to feel like they have the "best of the best" equipment. Even in cases where the use of carbon is probably of very little benefit. I'd expect people paying full price for a click bar to be the same demographic, therefore by not using the best available lines, Duotone risk putting off this section of the market.

clydesdale
Frequent Poster
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:15 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Duotone 2020

Postby clydesdale » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:43 pm

thanks for your replies dan.

I’m a duotone and older north kite fan but consistent bar and line issues always makes me angry when i break lines or have heavy wear prematurely vs other competitors bars and lines.

Regarding your math on replacement lines not being ordered. i’ve stopped replacing the lines and just wait to buy last years bar heavily discounted for $300-350 range. replacing all the lines and depower rope is basically the same cost. maybe that is duotones plan.
6B88F048-12DB-4BEB-BFAA-662C18D4CB11.png
7B447E69-AABF-4596-9F03-1539D2257286.png


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], PrfctChaos, zerogee_ca and 29 guests

cron