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Wingsurfing Right of Way

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james
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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby james » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:36 am

Usual spot I kite at

Mix of windsurfing, kiteing

Also add in foiling versions of both

Then add in flat water SUP and kayakers

Plus beginners in all six groups

Then lastly foiling and non foiling wingsurfers.
Who has right if way in your book?

I will tell you who doesn’t and it’s me.
The vast majority of my time is spent speed sailing, either on a small asymmetric or kiteslalom board,

If I am on starboard yes I have right if way, at 40kts you are constrained by your ability to manoeuvre, I have right of way, its shallow, so I am constrained by my draft, I have right of way....

Yet Sitting at 40kts “knowing I am right” isn’t going to do anyone much good in a collision so I avoid it, I slow down, I turn, I keep out of the way, I give water

“Being right/having right of way” isn’t what is important, so you starting this topic trying to rank who gives way is the never ending circle jerk that you love.

Not being a dick is far easier to implement, yeah you were in the right, but so what give them some room and get on with it.

OR go home and think up another deeply engaging and highly predictable way of pissing people off on the forum
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apollo4000 (Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:30 am)
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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby apollo4000 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:38 am

james wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:36 am

“knowing I am right” isn’t going to do anyone much good in a collision so I avoid it, I slow down, I turn, I keep out of the way, I give water

“Being right/having right of way” isn’t what is important. Not being a dick is far easier to implement, yeah you were in the right, but so what give them some room and get on with it.
A philosophy most likely to avoid conflict and increase enjoyment. You’re my kind of kitesurfer.

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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby Matteo V » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:13 pm

Da Yoda wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 5:06 am
Matteo V wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:39 am
Less maneuverable craft has the right of way, more maneuverable craft must avoid. Look into it and come back here when you see that is true.
Your question was about the various sails and who has right if way. It's NOT about the sails! It's about one's position and maneuverability regardless of the sail type. Why did you even bother to ask this question if you already know the answer? :duh:
The question has not been answered. You said that right of way does not matter what sail you have. It absolutely does matter. Case in point- a Windsurfer on the inside has the right-of-way over a kite Surfer on the inside also. Both have sails. But the windsurfer is unable to jump over incoming waves and must do more to handle even closeouts then a kiter. Thus, at least on the west coast of the USA, a windsurfer has right of way over a kitesurfer SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE they have less of an ability to maneuver. And this is only one of many examples where your statement is wrong that 'all sailing craft are equal'.

The question I don't know the answer to Is how much maneuverability does a wingsurfer have in the lineup? And again, that question has not been answered.

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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby Herman » Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:36 pm

Is the answer 42?

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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby PullStrings » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:23 pm

Give Wingsurfers the right of way all the time on any point of sail

Image
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Jfoil (Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:21 am)
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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby longwhitecloud » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:27 pm

get a red flag, when someone break rule 4.5.6 part a , show them by hoisting it up on your lines.

Windsurfers make great sliders when they are down.

I once had a windsurfer beg me to drag him back to shore after he snapped his mast riding the reef, he was completely hysterical - a bit of a fishy place quite far out but ott , lucky he wasnt the grumpy middle aged man kooksurfer has-been that thought it was ok to drop in on my wave twice cos he would have been swimming the whole way, no help... I fu$$%ing hate self entitled drop ins.

You never know what is going to happen.

Wingsurfers - there is a food chain - they start at the bottom like everyone else (like Drake).

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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby Matteo V » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:49 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:27 pm
Wingsurfers - there is a food chain - they start at the bottom like everyone else (like Drake).
That was one of the things in the back of my mind. Back when kitesurfing was just getting popular, the windsurfers pretty much relegated them to "the bottom of the food chain". The primary reason for this typically given was that kitesurfing was "new" to the spot, and windsurfing was established. But the difference in maneuverability came to light much later when bow kites evolved and gained widespread use. Now there is a clear maneuverability advantage to kitesurfers over windsurfers with respect to maneuverability.

How this plays out with wingsurfing, if it even takes off, will be interesting as it has the potential to be the opposite in some ways. Still, it seems no one here can make a call backed by evidence, as to who is the more maneuverable craft.

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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby grigorib » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:07 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:49 pm

...Still, it seems no one here can make a call backed by evidence, as to who is the more maneuverable craft.
Not sure what evidence would contradict the assumptions - wingsurfers are slower, riding massive boards, they can’t change direction as fast. Most likely they will be people who are renting the equipment, with no experience.

I’d love to kite next to Robby, while he’s on wingsurf, but that will probably never happen.

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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby Matteo V » Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:26 pm

james wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:36 am
.... so you starting this topic trying to rank who gives way is the never ending circle jerk that you love.
James,

Herman and you have a total of 10+ posts here in this topic. So if that is a round about way of proposing, well.....maybe back to back.....but definitely no eye contact. Unless you two want to, but please no eye contact with me.

All kidding aside,



james wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:36 am
Usual spot I kite at

Mix of windsurfing, kiteing

Also add in foiling versions of both

Then add in flat water SUP and kayakers

Plus beginners in all six groups

Then lastly foiling and non foiling wingsurfers.
Who has right if way in your book?
1. Vessel in distress - not in your list, but has right of way over all others.

2. Comercial/business, transport - again, not in your list, but they have right of way over all recreational groups underway.

3. Beginners - in all six groups have very little chance of changing course at all, and thus they have the right of way. In addition to that, I will also keep my distance so that I am never intentionally get close enough to come into a "right of way" situation with them.

4. Human power has right of way over sail.

5. Less maneuverable sail has right of way over more maneuverable sail: example: kite-hydrofoil yields right of way to kitesufer when pointing upwind on outside because a kitehydrofoil can easily point higher with little consequence to overall time/course. Kitesurfer yields right of way to kitehydrofoil on the inside if changing course for kite-hydrofoil would cause it to run aground. Twintip-kiteboarder yields right of way to kitesurfer when difference in draft will allow the twintip-kiteboarder to cross a shallow sand bar, but will not allow the kitesurfer's fins to clear the bar. In all of these situations, Starboard rule goes right out of the window.

6. Sail and human power both have right of way over motor.


NOTE: Wingsurfing fits somewhere into "5." This topic is about finding out where exactly in "5." wingsurfers fit.






james wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:36 am
If I am on starboard yes I have right if way, at 40kts you are constrained by your ability to manoeuvre, I have right of way, its shallow, so I am constrained by my draft, I have right of way....

Yet Sitting at 40kts “knowing I am right” isn’t going to do anyone much good in a collision so I avoid it, I slow down, I turn, I keep out of the way, I give water
Totally agree! Yes, others may not know the rules. Same as driving a car. Right of way rules treat others ignorant of those rules as beginners or just plain hazards you need to avoid. But right of way rules still work in most situations, and will determine fault after a collision. Thus just ignoring them is not conducive to things working out smoothly. But the most important part about right of way rules is that they determine:

A. ONE VESSEL HOLDS COURSE (vessel with "the right of way"), and can only hold that one course with the exception of changing course being allowed to avoid a collision with a third vessel, object, or other peril.

and

B. THE OTHER VESSEL CHANGES COURSE (vessel that does not have the right of way) and can take any action (course) to avoid collision.

As you can see, "A." is more restricted in what it can do. And it is restricted to doing only 1 thing - holding course.

"B." can take any action it chooses, upwind downwind, turnaround, stop, go slower, or go faster, to avoid hitting "A."

But this only works if "A" holds course. If "A" changes course, then a collision could occur on one of the paths that "B." chose to take in an effort to avoid "A's" original course.



james wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:36 am
Not being a dick is far easier to implement, yeah you were in the right, but so what give them some room and get on with it.
Not being a dick is completely subjective and impossible to implement. The evidence for this is everyday life. Seriously, confront anyone that you catch "being a dick" and the first thing will say is 'the other guy was being the dick, I was right'. So your idea that you (or anyone/everyone) can just "not be a dick" is absolutely wrong. A proof of this is that you can actually "be a dick" while following the rules. That is how slow sailboat racers beat faster ones.

On top of that, giving room is not the same as "right of way". Giving room means that your paths will never cross in a manner that would create a right of way situation. Right of way situations only occur when there is no room to both pass while holding the same course.

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Re: Wingsurfing Right of Way

Postby iriejohn » Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:04 pm

As ever, it's all about you.
Matteo V wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:26 am

I actually pride myself as being the guy that moves out of the area when beginners or less capable kiters are getting in the water. As I stated, I think outgoing (at a regular launch/entry point) should have right of way over the kiter on the wave at beach breaks. Most others have voiced opposition to my line of thinking on this. I feel that keeping someone from entering the water is dangerous as they spend more time on land with the kite above them. Wave or no wave, I will do what I can to make way for someone getting on the water. I also will happily give up the best flatwater, or break, for others learning or even just less experienced.

I also yield right of way to windsurfers in every circumstance as they are much less maneuverable and have more risk when going down in the break or even on the outside.

I do the absolute best to stay away from beachgoers, even when the beach is crowded. I also watch out for other kiters and offer to land them, even when my kite is still in the air.

I provide board rescue and "drag in" rescues and am willing to ditch my board to get someone off the water asap.

I also stop kiting if I see a beginner at my local beach, or abroad, and help them. Most of the time I offer to get in the water, carry their board, and walk upwind with them while they fly the kite. I give them as much information on the location as I can, in an effort to keep them, and others safe.

I also religiously wear a helmet, even though I do not look cool with it, to do my best avoid becoming a liability to rescue personnel.

So could you tell me where you find in my writings here, that I am "that guy" and/or that you think I do not believe in avoiding collisions? The entire purpose of my original post is to get some exposure on the upcoming issues kiters are going to have with wingsurfers. Hopefully we can think things through, share our experience, and avoid negative interactions with this new user group.

And honestly, I did not think that we would be revisiting the basics of "right of way" in this topic. Though, f should have known better.

But please tell me what you think I do wrong out on the water that makes me someone you would not want to be at the same beach with.


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