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Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

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jumptheshark
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:36 am

Faxie wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:59 pm
jumptheshark wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:16 pm
?? Stagnate?

Would think that improvements in materials can only lead to opening additional avenues for development.
How's that? The stuff is stronger, and that's it.

Why don't you give your thoughts about why the big brands just happened to miss this new development?
Why did the big brands miss this? Because they haven't been looking for it. They are generally too content with minor changes year to year.

As to materials being stronger not being a big deal. I would consider things like the current strutless kites a major change in kite design. How many big brand kites have you seen footage of someone pinwheeling the kite while riding and letting the kite sit stalled into perfect hover straight downwind, then shoot off in whatever desired direction? Or successful production sizes down to 2.2m! These are already achieved and are so far outside the thinking of the big brands. New materials with difference in weight, strength, and rigidity can only allow further departure from what the big brands are willing to risk.

If the bladder and outer material work in tandem for rigidity and handle much higher pressures as mentioned, it can mean drastic reduction in tube size while still achieving the structural rigidity of today's kites. Designs could look as different as Bruno's high pressure tube kite with inflated trailing edge. Untearable fabric has big implications for simple quick kite repair when you do manage to get a puncture.

Even using similar overall planform as our current three strut kites but with significantly smaller tubes, potentially very little scuff guarding resulting in a fraction of the weight could lead to kites that drastically outperform what we are used to now.

I'm already on a 8m in winds that traditional TT riders need an 18m, I go faster at better angles and have three times the dexterity. Not sure why you want to put up such a negative attitude toward something that has the potential to transform our sport yet another major step.

Quad ripstop was heralded by the big boys as an absolute reason to buy their stuff. It really didnt change anything. Dynema lines are THE ONE TRUE invention that has made this entire sport possible. Incorporating the same material into our fabrics is not simply another nylon thread in our ripstop, it could very much render all of our current big brand kites to the bargain end of the used kite market inside a couple years of production..... and thats if they simply rebuild the same designs we have now. I tend to think there are a few mad scientists out there that will not be satisfied to stop there.
Last edited by jumptheshark on Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Ulrik » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:17 pm

Toby wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:44 pm
mede wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:50 am
Lighter kites fly better ;)
Those who kite a bit longer already probably remember Wipika and Takoon kites, which were so much ahead of the competition in the mid 2000, with the competition typically building kites like heavy trucks instead of fast and nimble racing cars...
I wish they go back to that!
Way too fast these days.
If it´s too fast, You´re too old :wink: :lol:
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Faxie » Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:10 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:36 am
Faxie wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:59 pm
jumptheshark wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:16 pm
?? Stagnate?

Would think that improvements in materials can only lead to opening additional avenues for development.
How's that? The stuff is stronger, and that's it.

Why don't you give your thoughts about why the big brands just happened to miss this new development?
Why did the big brands miss this? Because they haven't been looking for it. They are generally too content with minor changes year to year.

As to materials being stronger not being a big deal. I would consider things like the current strutless kites a major change in kite design. How many big brand kites have you seen footage of someone pinwheeling the kite while riding and letting the kite sit stalled into perfect hover straight downwind, then shoot off in whatever desired direction? Or successful production sizes down to 2.2m! These are already achieved and are so far outside the thinking of the big brands. New materials with difference in weight, strength, and rigidity can only allow further departure from what the big brands are willing to risk.

If the bladder and outer material work in tandem for rigidity and handle much higher pressures as mentioned, it can mean drastic reduction in tube size while still achieving the structural rigidity of today's kites. Designs could look as different as Bruno's high pressure tube kite with inflated trailing edge. Untearable fabric has big implications for simple quick kite repair when you do manage to get a puncture.

Even using similar overall planform as our current three strut kites but with significantly smaller tubes, potentially very little scuff guarding resulting in a fraction of the weight could lead to kites that drastically outperform what we are used to now.

I'm already on a 8m in winds that traditional TT riders need an 18m, I go faster at better angles and have three times the dexterity. Not sure why you want to put up such a negative attitude toward something that has the potential to transform our sport yet another major step.

Quad ripstop was heralded by the big boys as an absolute reason to buy their stuff. It really didnt change anything. Dynema lines are THE ONE TRUE invention that has made this entire sport possible. Incorporating the same material into our fabrics is not simply another nylon thread in our ripstop, it could very much render all of our current big brand kites to the bargain end of the used kite market inside a couple years of production..... and thats if they simply rebuild the same designs we have now. I tend to think there are a few mad scientists out there that will not be satisfied to stop there.
That's what I'm saying. They can still sell their stuff and have the biggest market share by utilizing the same concepts, so they don't need new materials, yet.

Strutless kites are not a result of material developments, but design developments.

You're not getting that drastic reduction in tube sizes. Like mentioned before, the pressure apparently doesn't affect the rigidity that much, but will affect the buckling point. For the same material, a reduction in diameter of 2 will make the tube 16 times less rigid. So with the new material you can get more rigidity, but don't expect 16 times. I think you should be happy with a 1/4 diameter reduction.

Someone else mentioned thickness. That's a valid argument, because leading edges will suffer from abrasion offcourse, and the difference in abrasion resistance between polyester and uhmwpe is not that big. So you still can't make the material too thin or you will suffer from potential quality problems in the long run.

The Bruno design looks nice, but I'm not seeing the real benefit there. What exactly does it do better than current designs? Nice experiment though.

I don't have a negative attitude, that's how you are interpreting it yourself. I'm being realistic and down to earth. And a hydrofoil comparison would count only if current kites would have so much drag that they have an edge just past full downwind. Which is not the case.

Yes, it will probably result in better kites, because yes, they will get lighter and more aerodynamic efficient. You might have missed it, but I never claimed that would not be the case. I just don't think the difference will be that high. You might want to temper those expectations.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:30 pm

We can revisit in a couple years time and see just where we're at.

My mention of strutless kites as they are currently on the market was to highlight the conservative nature of the current big kite companies. They wont even really venture outside their comfort zone with existing materials when there are obviously drastically different working designs already out there. Instead they respond by taking two struts off their wave kites and coming up with a new name. Of course their not putting resources into new materials like OR apparently has. They will either need to catch up of get on board with licensing.

1/4 tube reduction across the board is fantastic. Combine it with halving the weight and your looking at major improvements in performance. might be less impact in 20 knots of wind, but heaps of us are out in 12 knots these days where the differences will be far more appreciable. If the material is half the weight, I doubt they will bother flirting with thin versions on structural components. All of your speculation on everything from tube pressure, size, thickness and abrasion are based on pretty much nothing. Even when talking the paper on the rigidity of inflated structures. I think you have the wrong take home point as your focus. Regarding bending vs buckling. deflection or bending has never been the issue, buckling is. Increased pressure does indeed decrease buckling, and that is what matters to kites. Deflection will always be needed for the kite to turn. Tube size will indeed go down with both the material's innate non stretch property as well as increased tube pressure.

Time will tell, just how much impact new materials will have, but as a consumer, I'm very much in favor of companies like OR actively working on improvements. Kites have come a long way since I started, I bet they still have a long way to go.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby knotwindy » Thu Jul 04, 2019 5:53 pm

Most large companies have lots of new stuff in the tubes ready to go out to the public but
If they release them all, what do they do next year to make their stuff “better than ever”?
So they release it in dribs and drabs to get 6-7 years “improvements” out of it.

Good business maybe, not so great for early adopter users.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby knyfe » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:22 pm

who cares about new material?

All I care is if a kite flys better - which means very different things for different people. So just wait until the kites are out and then test them. If you like them great - if not just use your old kites you liked for such a long time now. There were so many things is kitesurfing which were the "NEW" - whatever and turned out to be nothing.

Best hopes to OR to make great kites. Then we can argue. G

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby fluidity » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:38 am

Changes for a material of sufficient strength but lighter:
Easier launch, relaunch.
Less tendency for the kite to want to move to either side of the wind window.
Less tendency to dive.
More reactive due to lower mass.
Be good to hear a detailed review from somebody comparing the same kite design in both materials!

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby purdyd » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:52 pm

fluidity wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:38 am
Changes for a material of sufficient strength but lighter:
Easier launch, relaunch.
Less tendency for the kite to want to move to either side of the wind window.
Less tendency to dive.
More reactive due to lower mass.
Be good to hear a detailed review from somebody comparing the same kite design in both materials!
I don’t think it is practical to make the same kite with both materials.

The ocean rodeo roam is a good example. It has a larger leading edge by design. Change it to a smaller leading edge and it will fly differently.

Perhaps more shape can come from the stiffer struts to compensate,

Leave the leading edge the same and it will be really stiff, and won’t twist as well and hence won’t turn as well.

Best kiteboarding added flex points of different material and reduced the amount of cuben fiber in the leading edge.

Perhaps there is a way to orient the weave of aluula to reduce its torsional stiffness.

Changing the weight of the leading edge will change the center of gravity which may require a slight adjustment in the bridle.

Looking forward to trying one of the new kites.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Toby » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:21 pm

I had a quick chat with someone from inside the industry... And they believe that material will change the kites big time in 3-4 years.
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby foilholio » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:39 pm

Toby you realize you just summarized this thread? ORsales is ... inside the industry.
purdyd wrote: Perhaps there is a way to orient the weave of aluula to reduce its torsional stiffness.
Cuben fibre was a composite fabric as the fibers were glued in, which is probably why it was so stiff and it was also why it failed because the glue did.

If this new fabric is woven like other fabrics it should have similar flex.


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