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Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

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grigorib
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby grigorib » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:44 am

GregK wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:31 am
grigorib wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:47 pm
Are you saying pumping LE to 4PSI and pumping same LE to 12PSI will result in same resistance to bending?
Let me answer this in another way :

Two identical kites, one pumped to 4 psi, the other 12 psi.

Fly them in a very light breeze, the load on their airframes is quite light, both will deflect ( bend ) under that light load exact the same amount.

Now fly them in a strong wind. The load on the airframes is much higher, but not high enough for the highest load point on the 12 psi kite to reach the buckling point ( buckling is like kinking, excessive bending all in a small area versus the gradual deformation of bending deformation ).

Different story with the 4 psi kite, that highly-loaded point has exceeded the buckling point and the LE will fold or kink.

So depending on how you interpret "resistance to bending" the 12 psi kite will seem more resistant. Yes it can resist higher bending loads & deflection without kinking or buckling, but the rate of deformation, which is the true definition of stiffness, is the same.

Techin' out on ya, eh ?
___________________________________

CORRECTION - I went back and reviewed the test results and simulation/modelling work reported in these articles, and my summary above is not correct.

While their analysis and test results confirmed the linear dependence of the onset of buckling ( or wrinkling as they called it ) with respect to inflation pressure, their test results also clearly showed that increased inflation pressure does increase the bending stiffness of woven fabric inflated structures.

It was not a linear relationship, in the first test reported ( a 6-inch diameter un-coated plain-woven Vectran fabric air beam with a 2:1 ratio of weft-to-warp fiber density ) in the low-load region of the test below the onset of wrinkling, bending stiffness increased with pressure with slightly less than a linear dependence, about a 0.7 order or power relationship.

In their second test series using a smaller 2-inch diameter air beam with everything else similar to the first series, the bending stiffness increased with very close to a linear relation to inflation pressure, about 0.9 order.

And in their third series of tests, only two test pressures were used, so not enough data from which to determine a relationship, but definitely an increase in bending stiffness with the higher inflation pressure.

It is an over-simplification to assume plain-woven fabric will act with isotropic in-plane properties. When inflated, the axial or hoop load in the fabric will be twice the axial load, creating shear stress, to which the woven fabric's response is complex ( weft-warp fiber slip & friction, weft-warp fiber angular shift ) and non-linear, not a function of material properties, but rather a system property. Also increased inflation pressure alters the weave crimp, the undulating pattern of fibers running over and under adjacent fibers in the weave. Alterations in crimp geometry, termed crimp interchange " is a source of nonlinear load-extension behavior for fabrics " - a direct quote from the first article.

So go ahead and pump harder, your kite does bend less with higher inflation pressure.
The way I read the research it was meant that force of bending a tube doesn’t change on internal tube pressure and it makes sense.
But amount of initial force required to start bending it would depend on the pressure and stiffness would change. And larger tube diameter takes less pressure to be more stiff.

When I had 2012 Rallys and started boosting on them it took higher pressure to prevent eartips folding on me in the middle of very powered jumps. Then I stopped abusing poor kites and foiled on them replacing 2012 Rally with more structured later model.

Nice discussion, thanks for coming back to the topic!

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby knotwindy » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:52 am

So go ahead and pump harder, your kite does bend less with higher inflation pressure.
Huh, thanks, never would have noticed :roll: :-? :lol:

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby pmaggie » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:11 am

What I frankly can't understand is that in the Ocean Rodeo site there is the "2020 kites" page but no mention to the new Aluula models. About the Razor they say: "Now in its 8th generation, the Razor is built tough and light, with time-tested materials and construction techniques". That means no Aluula for the moment...

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby flaps1111 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:37 pm

Cuben fiber 2.0

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby nothing2seehere » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:47 pm

pmaggie wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:11 am
What I frankly can't understand is that in the Ocean Rodeo site there is the "2020 kites" page but no mention to the new Aluula models. About the Razor they say: "Now in its 8th generation, the Razor is built tough and light, with time-tested materials and construction techniques". That means no Aluula for the moment...
Its under the heading 'Black'.

https://oceanrodeo.eu/black/

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:30 pm

flaps1111 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:37 pm
Cuben fiber 2.0
I don't get this type of dismissal. Isn't a 2.0 version that overcomes the issues found with any initial promising concept totally desirable?

If you can remember the Hellfish, I'm pretty sure Ocean Rodeo does too. The fact Cuben was such a bust gives me greater confidence this material is indeed a significant improvement. If your gonna jump in with a new material, you had better know your not simply making the same mistake! What was that? 15 years ago?! It's a bit sad how bad it scared the pant's off major industry kite designers. They haven't even attempted to improve materials with anything more than a strand of ripstop since. I think Ocean Rodeo are smart enough to do the betta testing themselves before even letting word leak.

We've had over a decade of "anti stiction" and "future C" "technology".

F&%k that. Give me Cuban fiber 2.0 !
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Matteo V » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:49 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:30 pm
flaps1111 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:37 pm
Cuben fiber 2.0
I don't get this type of dismissal. Isn't a 2.0 version that overcomes the issues found with any initial promising concept totally desirable?

If you can remember the Hellfish, I'm pretty sure Ocean Rodeo does too. The fact Cuben was such a bust gives me greater confidence this material is indeed a significant improvement. If your gonna jump in with a new material, you had better know your not simply making the same mistake! What was that? 15 years ago?! It's a bit sad how bad it scared the pant's off major industry kite designers. They haven't even attempted to improve materials with anything more than a strand of ripstop since. I think Ocean Rodeo are smart enough to do the betta testing themselves before even letting word leak.

We've had over a decade of "anti stiction" and "future C" "technology".

F&%k that. Give me Cuban fiber 2.0 !
It is pretty simple. How have they overcome the issues of a no stretch material mated to a material that does stretch? - remember that it could be a few years before we see aluula canopy material.

More specifically, what is the 3 year wear use/storage cycle characteristics of the completed product?

It's good that you want to jump into this head first and see what happens. I'll err on the side of caution as it could be a big risk to re selling a kite that gets in the spotlight for having issues. But if any company can do this right, it's Ocean Rodeo.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby foilholio » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:39 am

I think the issue with cuben has always been the lamination of different materials. Surely the solution is to just weave the materials together like normal fabric. I mean by laminating things together you are not just trying to use a new material but reinvent fabric. Reinvent a proven 1000's year old technology, like trying to reinvent the wheel.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby purdyd » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:35 pm

There is a Gartner hype cycle.
CD68F666-3E70-44CF-97BF-629089721B62.jpeg
https://www.diamandis.com/blog/5-stages ... hype-cycle

In my experience, the higher the initial hype, the deeper the trough of disillusionment

For instance while hellfish was not successful in using cuben fiber, it was subsequently used without issues in the leading edge of kites.

But what does everyone remember?

I think at this juncture it would be best to have a little bit of cautious optimism and manage some expectations.

Expectations in terms of performance and availability.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby jumptheshark » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:49 pm

Looking at how best announced the introduction of cuban fibre compared to how Ocean Rodeo are phrasing their marketing on Aluula. It's pretty clear Ocean Rodeo are taking a comparatively understated approach.
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