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Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

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Faxie
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby Faxie » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:04 pm

nixmatters wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:40 pm
Finally someone with a good and logical explanation ^^^ ;)

The looser weave of Aluula is well visible and easy to count in the very first video leaked out by gleiten.tv.

And when we talk about puncture resistance, we need to clearly distinguish between
- puncture from fine 'needle like' object, normally causing small air leakage and easy to repair (patch the bladder)
- cuts in the material by glass, etc. causing material tear (if big enough)
- LE explosion caused by tomahawking the kite in water or on land.
In the first case I assume conventional dacron will be better. In the other 2 - the Aluula.

Dacron has a very tight weave and a melamine resin coating that makes it so stiff (esp. in bias), which is the very reason for its low tear strength. The resin matrix keeps the single yarns from slipping and they break one by one.

ALUULA on the countrary has a loose weave with (apparently) softer coating, which in the case of tear allows the yarns to shift/slip and act like a ripstop - clearly visible in the videos where people are trying to tear it with bare hands. Ironically, the more you try to tear it, the stronger it gets.

Aluula bias stiffness I assume comes from the high modulus of the yarn used, i.e. when warp and weave are tensioned (inflated LE) to the point where the residual elongation of the weave+yarn come close to its anyway low maximum (3% vs ~10% for HT polyester), the bias elongation of the relative open weave increases dramatically.

Graphene function in Aluula has nothing to do with fiber tensile strength, modulus or elongation. It is there to make the coating possible. Just a nano powder added to the liquid UHMWPE (I guess) before fiber extrusion (gell spinning).

I have no involvement in this development and haven't had a chance yet to see or touch the material. It's basic material knowledge and logic.
Agreed.

Also, HMWPE is very slippery, so even more than with polyester you'll need that coating to keep all the fibers in place. Coating does little for individual fiber strength, but it does add to cloth strength.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby foilholio » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:14 pm

Things penetrate dyneema easier because it is more slippery. The only thing that will improve the material from penetration is the coating and weave tightness, which is worse on this fabric. Also OR is using thinner bladders which are known to have holes wear in them much quicker from like sand. From an understanding of basic physics anyone would know durability doesn't increase by using less material, well unless you use it differently. Armin given his advancements in kites would have a good understanding of first principles. Unlike most other designers that just trial and error and copy each other.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:00 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:14 pm
Things penetrate dyneema easier because it is more slippery. The only thing that will improve the material from penetration is the coating and weave tightness, which is worse on this fabric. Also OR is using thinner bladders which are known to have holes wear in them much quicker from like sand. From an understanding of basic physics anyone would know durability doesn't increase by using less material, well unless you use it differently. Armin given his advancements in kites would have a good understanding of first principles. Unlike most other designers that just trial and error and copy each other.
Holy condecention !

You manage to denigrate a material that you know nothing definitive about: "which is worse on this fabric"

Throw the company bringing it to market under the bus: "OR is using thinner bladders which are known to have holes wear in them much quicker"

Pump your pumpless agenda with some brown nosing: "Armin given his advancements in kites would have a good understanding of first principles"

And finally slag pretty much everyone else: "Unlike most other designers that just trial and error and copy each other"

Keep looking down your nose like that and you'll get a crick in your neck!

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby jakemoore » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:10 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:14 pm
Things penetrate dyneema easier because it is more slippery.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby ap888 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:02 am

No need to assume & make pre judgements on Aluula it's not fully released to the market so...until then :byebye: :thumb:
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby pmaggie » Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:25 am

Very interesting posts and good arguments. I think that, leaving for a moment the technical discussion, we have to consider the final destination of an Aluula kite. My opinion is that the black kites will be addressed to users looking for extreme lightness and performance in light wind and foiling. It's no sense to pay a lot more to have a "delicate" kite if you're planning to use it in nuclear conditions. I mean: in my windsurfing years, I bought both wave and slalom/formula stuff. Wave gear was basically bomb proof, both sails and boards, stuff to be used in hard conditions, that means strong wind and waves. In this case nobody complains about the weight of a sail, sturdiness is the watchword. Slalom and formula stuff is designed for maximum performance, that means super light weight, but with (quite) no care for durability. Imo the black kites are targeted to foilers and light wind freeriders, not for hard core wavers and mega loopers. So it's reasonable to think they will be more "delicate" than a standard kite but also much more performing in their range of use. About Armin, FS always underlined that the super light material of their race kites is also super delicate, and I think this is absolutely reasonable for product aimed totally at performing.
See Sonic Race manual:

"The SONIC RACE and Infinity 3.0 Race Control Bar PRO are excluded from 12 months free repair warranty!
Materials and construction have been fully optimized within these products, in order to achieve the highest possible performance in competitions. Therefore, there is no Free-Repair Warrantee on the SONIC RACE kite as well as the Infinity 3.0 Race Control Bar Pro, as applicable to other Flysurfer products. Of course, the customer is entitled to statutory warranty claims."

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby foilholio » Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:09 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:10 am
foilholio wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:14 pm
Things penetrate dyneema easier because it is more slippery.
That is not my exact position sorry, I should be clearer. I am referring to sharp things penetrating like needles when sewing. The type of things on the beach that would cause a slow leak, like spiky plants etc. You have drawn a bit of a straw man argument as a bullet proof vest as seen in the video uses extremely thick multiple layers of fabric and probably special weave. The bullet is blunt but under high speed and manages to past through multiple layers of the fabric. It would be easy to exceed the pressure of a bullet with a needle like object and moderate hand pressure. As such even with a thick bullet proof vest a needle could easily be made to pass through it and penetrate something like a bladder on the other side.

jumptheshark wrote: You manage to denigrate a material that you know nothing definitive about: "which is worse on this fabric"
That is not true, things have been stated about it. It is for one lighter. That alone will degrade durability. It is made of a material that is slipperier so things can pass thru it easier and also it is lighter and as so thinner so things can pass thru it easier. It is made of a looser weave so again things can pass easier thru it.
jumptheshark wrote: Pump your pumpless agenda with some brown nosing: "Armin given his advancements in kites would have a good understanding of first principles"
Unlike most in the kite industry Flysurfer has because of an independent path had to work out a lot of things unlike just copying them from each other as tube companies have. I have heard Armin talk and he does seem to base his ideas in reality. Flysurfer and Armin deserve credit because it is due, I am not seeking something from them, I have been highly critical of some things they have done.
jumptheshark wrote: And finally slag pretty much everyone else: "Unlike most other designers that just trial and error and copy each other"
Well it is true as the quality of talent the industry attracts is not the best, there is just no money, the only talented people involved are in it because of a passion.

As to copying it is only garnered a negative connotation because the capital class have built so much power by denying so many what is a natural right to share ideas. Infact if you didn't have copying in kiteboarding you wouldn't have much of an industry or gear to speak of. If more copying was done with small iterative improvement we would have even better gear. The fact someone like Flysurfer can work so much original flavor on things is a great achievement, same for BRM too.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby iriejohn » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:52 pm

foilholio wrote:... Unlike most in the kite industry Flysurfer has because of an independent path had to work out a lot of things unlike just copying them from each other as tube companies have ...
Perhaps you would care to provide proof that "tube companies" have "just copied ... from each other"?

Thanks.

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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby jakemoore » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:16 pm

foilholio wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:09 pm

That is not my exact position sorry, I should be clearer. I am referring to sharp things penetrating like needles when sewing.
UHMWPE low coefficient of friction has anything to do with it. Goat heads go just as easily through a rubber tire. Foil kite advantage is not the cloth, it’s the low operating pressure.
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Re: Aluula ? New Revolutionary Material from Ocean Rodeo

Postby foilholio » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:49 pm

Well I would more describe it as a foil kite's flexibility is it's advantage. But for leaks I think you would find on examination that self refilling with air is the crucial piece of technology to avoid problems with small leaks. Aint those thorns just dandy? especially on bare feet.

As to copying well you will just have to take my word on it. If you could get a kite designer to be honest with you he could explain the situation.


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