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Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

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Exal
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Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby Exal » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:35 am

Alrighty I have this buddy and he only spends very little on his kite gear. A kite can be 50-150 bucks tops and pretty much 2006 onwards. He keeps telling me that the gear is fine and I am crazy for spending so much on my gear. My last attempt was to convince him to buy a relatively new kite for 25 knots onwards/storm sessions since he wants to get into looping and boosting big, his response: nah I have two 7m, got them both for 150.

Now what's the deal guys, can you use old gear that is in good shape just aswell as new gear? If I am not compeletely off here then a 2006 kite, even if it is "like new", should get you in weird situations more easily than a superceeded new kite from a couple years ago. Cruising on a huge flatwater section or a lake, alright I'll get it, doesn't matter too much if your gear goes boom but on the ocean I would be terrified with that material - maybe this is the marketing working overtime but the thinking pay a bit more and get a bit more quality is definitely a virus I can't shake.

Now the last time I went kiting with the guy we had 13 to 16 knots on a lake and he busted out a 12m kite with 7 struts, middle strut was leaking but hey: still have enough struts. I was enjoying the early morning session on my 12m, wasn't much wind but it worked good. After 30 minutes I was looking for him and he was in a wind shadow and I towed him back to shore. The day before the wind was very soft, maybe 11 to 13 knots, some people were on 13m kites and were able to at least not drift downwind. He busted out a 16m and couldn't go upwind, was stuck in another wind shadow and had to swim back in - now this day was weird so can't put too much weight on it but I told him: listen I'll believe in your strategy if I see you more kiting than swimming :lol:

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby cor » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:38 am

It's like an old car. Will it drive? Yes. Will it perform like when it was new? unlikely. Kites are not made to last forever. Fabric, bridles, outlets will be deteriorated already after such a long time, even if the kite has been handled with care or when it was just stored away. It's not an problem though. It will just not perform well and it requires more maintenance.

The issue is not with kites but with old bars and the lines. Is he also using a bar from 2006? If yes, that's a safety issue, not only because safety releases were shit back then, but especially with looping because there are high loads on the lines and they could snap. Are we talking about jumping really high and doing (mega-)loops? If one of those lines snaps in the loop, you are in some serious trouble because the kite will never catch you!

This reminds me of this one guy who rocked up at the spot with a very old kite (I didn't even know the brand as it was long gone). It is a very gusty spot with not a lot of space for launching and behind it there are some train tracks. He pumped up the kite and some of the guys approached him saying "are you sure you want to launch that thing here?". They even offered him their kites because they were really worried. This guy refused though and launched it. At that very moment, a gust hits the kite, a line snapped and it went into some kind of deathloop. He released the kite and of course - you guessed it - it landed right in the tracks. Guess who got a nice bill from the train company because he causes commute traffic to be delayed for at least 5 hours? And yes, he has new kites now.

There are always some people that have to safe money no matter what and have to learn it the hard way. The guy you are talking about seems like the next candidate.

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby Beardytello » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:43 am

....Absolutely nothin' say it again?

Sorry lol!

I spend money on gear, not that I have loads of excess to do so (and I'll always look for a bargain) but I try to keep my gear as new as I can afford.

For the simple reason that I just want to kite, there's almost nothing I hate more than getting to the beach excited for a session and having equipment failure, or worse have it happen out at sea in a 35kt blinder of a session!

But that's me, I understand people are different. I just have neither the time nor the patience to have old / unreliable gear. Nor am I the sort of person that wants to spend time repairing shit!

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby foam-n-fibre » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:10 pm

Did your buddy get into the wind shadow and have to swim due to his old gear? Or did he just kite into the wrong spot? Sometimes we see someone who makes more bad judgments than others. I'm not sure a new kite can fix that. Sure it might be better, but it may not make all the difference.

Peter

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby Exal » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:35 pm

For a second I thought we know the same guy cor but he didn't have an accident like that and clearly no new kites! His bars are newish apparently, I only saw one that was like an ozone bar but it wasn't ozone.
foam-n-fibre wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:10 pm
Did your buddy get into the wind shadow and have to swim due to his old gear? Or did he just kite into the wrong spot? Sometimes we see someone who makes more bad judgments than others. I'm not sure a new kite can fix that. Sure it might be better, but it may not make all the difference.

Peter
Have a look here Peter: http://prntscr.com/oc2o1j

Where I put the yellow X is roughly where I picked him up. You come down the ramp and try to get past that mountain and then you are all good. He was past the mountain, could kite for a bit and he did go upwind, at least he told me. There were around 50 windsurfers and 50 kiters out that morning and I got in the water first and couldn't find him until I saw him stranded. When he got stuck at the mountain he also dropped his kite. From there it was no chance to recover since you can't get the kite back up. We are around the same weight he might have 5kg on me and I was on a 139x42, he on a 140x42.5 twintip and I had no problem to go upwind. Kite sizes on the water were 9/10m (surfboard) up to 14m (freestylers), 12m was used by many people.

Rider skill is always a factor but I think any 12m kite would've been fine that day. My lightwind riding is still rough and even I managed to do some jumps.

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby MartinO » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:02 pm

I would say that the biggest concern would be the bladder valves. They tend to crack and just fail if they are over 10 years old. Apart from that, the development of kiting gear was massive from 2005 to 2008 somewhere and the introduction of bridled lei:s really made a difference to the masses. Almost no kites before 2006 where safe for beginners to intermediates and materials used often failed. 199x-2004 pretty much all kites I ever tried were just more or less bad with some very few exeptions. 2004-2005 materials started to mature. 2006-2007 included some trial and errors with bridled kites where some manufacturers made good stuff and others didn´t really get things to fly good. 2008 and forwards, most kites seem to be ok or sometimes even good even compared with todays kites. You can take any 2008 freeride kite basically and if the bladders hold up, a beginner to intermediate kiter will not even notice that it is older if it was a blind test. Kites like the 2008 Royal Era, F-One Bandit, Best Waroo (even the 2006 is pretty ok) would still be totally ok to learn on today. After that it is more refinement concepts and materials, adding more specific kites to the lineups, like wave or racing kites, nicer valves and reinforcements and so on rather than any real revolutions.

Bars and lines will hold up just fine as long as they don´t have any vital parts of old plastic. Old plastic pulleys are the biggest risk. Plastic ages over time. The flying lines are nothing to worry about if you don´t have any knots, wear or fray on them. Even if Dyneema also ages over time and looses some of it´s strength, you will still have atleast 80% of the original strength after about 15 years which still is a big margin if you are not a real hard charger. Wear and tear will be the most likely reason for death for a lineset, and not age.

So what you really risk is either to blow a pulley or a valve. If that happens in the wrong spot, you are in trouble. In my experience kites that get used regurarly start to fall apart after about 10 years. The leading egde textile and the rest of the cloth however have never failed on me, even on really old stuff (well apart from a . If it´s a kite without pulleys or you replace the bladder valves (or pulleys) at that point, my guess is that you can get almost 10 years more out of it.

I have a 15m RRD Hypertype from 2007 that I use maybe 1-2 times a year. It still feels pretty much like new and have never given me any problems. I compared it back to back to a 2016 Slingshot Turbine last summer and sure, I felt it was two different kites, but the Hypertype turned faster, had better low end grunt, was easier to go upwind with and jumped better. I felt no reason what so ever to upgrade to the new kite.
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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby PabloQ » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:14 pm

Dear, money is tyrant. I always buy used equipment for a few years and little use, and I was accumulating material. In other words, it used a 12m 10 or a 7 depending on the wind, but it spent 1/3 of the price of a new kite. Then I used 3 teams alternately, while others had only 1 new kite that they used while the range allowed it. Or they wore their only kite in hours of flight.
On the other hand, as has been said, the old kites require other maintenance, flange valves, fabrics. Even benefits for the design that are changing old defects.
So they are two different strategies. It depends on each wallet.


Now, is the cost of a kite relative to its durability and material? More than 1500 dollars per fabric and ends. Yes, high quality and high technology, but is it all cost? or are we paying something else?

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby Exal » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:38 pm

PabloQ wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:14 pm
Dear, money is tyrant. I always buy used equipment for a few years and little use, and I was accumulating material. In other words, it used a 12m 10 or a 7 depending on the wind, but it spent 1/3 of the price of a new kite. Then I used 3 teams alternately, while others had only 1 new kite that they used while the range allowed it. Or they wore their only kite in hours of flight.
On the other hand, as has been said, the old kites require other maintenance, flange valves, fabrics. Even benefits for the design that are changing old defects.
So they are two different strategies. It depends on each wallet.


Now, is the cost of a kite relative to its durability and material? More than 1500 dollars per fabric and ends. Yes, high quality and high technology, but is it all cost? or are we paying something else?
Not trying to get into the politics of it all. I buy new kites only since I saw how people treat their kites on the beach and even worse on lakes but that is just my preference. I buy my kites overseas when I am on holiday, if I can. For example I just bought a new 2019 dice in 9m for about 815 euros and the price here (withouth discounts/negotiating) is 1379 euros. I am carefull with the money I spent but I am still outdoing my buddy 5 times easy for each kite!

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby edt » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:15 pm

I ride old kites too. Let him do it, he probably likes swimming lol. Love new kites btw.

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Re: Old/Ancient gear - what is it good for?

Postby Matteo V » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:47 pm

A brand new kite right out of the bag first session has zero reliability. Bridles could be off, bladder valves could delaminate, inflate valves may not seal, plastic pulleys could be defective.

After 1 session, you can worry a bit less about major defects.

In my experience, a kites reliability peaks somewhere around 20 sessions. BUT IT NEVER HITS 100%!

After 20 sessions, concern about defects decreases, while concern about unseen usage damage increases. The latter is always a concern for the life of the kite.

From about 50 sessions till the kite dies, wear takes over as primary concern.

But never think your kite is 100% reliable because it is newer.


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