Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Camber fatality

Forum for kitesurfers
User avatar
Beardytello
Frequent Poster
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:07 pm
Kiting since: 2016
Local Beach: Isle of Man
Gear: North / Spleene / Ozone / CrazyFly / Mystic
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby Beardytello » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:37 pm

purdyd wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:40 pm
My experience is it is what is downwind that is the problem not whether you launch toward or away from the sea.
Absolutely agree.

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1337
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby Matteo V » Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:58 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:59 pm
Again I'm not anti helmet and would recommend people wear a well fitting lid where possible despite the drawbacks (lower situational awareness). I firmly believe that helmets can reduce the severity of non life threatening injuries (possibly even to no injury at all). I'm just not convinced that for adults where the skull has fully developed they can change a lethal situation into a non lethal one (I'm looking at the general case not the 1/2 inch nail sticking up that would have been just long enough to penetrate to the brain without a helmet but only long enough to penetrate to the scalp with a 1/2 inch layer of padding in a helmet type of cases)
Ok, so I hope this time I quoted enough of what you actually stated to make you happy on this one. I highlighted in red the specific part that I would disagree with. Actually, I cannot believe that someone would state this at all, but it does "take all kinds".

So let me make this an actual challenge for you to respond to. - Do you truly believe that of 10 different rider impacts of varying force on a nice smooth round rock, the survival rate (likely still with some injury) would be NO DIFFERENT with a helmet, than without one? Because that would be "bizarro world" insane! A high school course in statistics, along with a pinch of logic and reasoning would bring you back to the real world on this. And you don't even really need to do an experiment or look at case studies to make a reasonable argument against your position. Plus, those studies of helmet use in different sports would be a piece of cake to find and use against your stated position. But back to the simple reasoning, would you rather get hit by a baseball bat with a helmet on, or without one, given the same force applied?

Again, let me know if I have misquoted you on this one.



nothing2seehere wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:00 am
Oh the irony. (Incorrectly) Using a straw man fallacy - AS a straw man argument!
But now this takes the cake. Care to offer an explanation of why that assessment was wrong. I did for you. Can't you do it for me? Remember, "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." - Hitchens's Razor




And just as a disclaimer, don't feel like you are being attacked and don't quit the forum. You are a valuable contributor here and you help spark debate. I am just pointing out the logic and reasoning for my view in opposition to yours.

User avatar
RickI
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 8912
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 1998
Local Beach: SE Florida
Gear: Cabrinha
Brand Affiliation: Cabrinha
Location: Florida
Has thanked: 8 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby RickI » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:50 pm

Al_f I sent you a PM. Thank you
These users thanked the author RickI for the post:
purdyd (Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:50 am)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
edt
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5461
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: Michigan
Gear: slingshot liquid force wainman pansh naish duotone cwb burton ronix rpm ozone
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby edt » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:50 pm

Beardytello wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:37 pm
purdyd wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:40 pm
My experience is it is what is downwind that is the problem not whether you launch toward or away from the sea.
Absolutely agree.
agree.

PabloQ
Rare Poster
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:31 pm
Kiting since: 8
Local Beach: Quilmes Buenos Aires
Favorite Beaches: Cauipe, Cumbuco, Cofeco
Style: AirStyle Freeride
Gear: Flysurfer soul, Psycho4, Ocean Rodeo Razor Rise, Naish Park, Vari Condor 2, Slingshot Turbo 3
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby PabloQ » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:13 pm


PullStrings
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:54 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: LEI's & Surfboards
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby PullStrings » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:25 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:58 pm
nothing2seehere wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:00 am
Oh the irony. (Incorrectly) Using a straw man fallacy - AS a straw man argument!
Don't feel like you are being attacked and don't quit the forum.
I am just pointing out the logic and reasoning for my view in opposition to yours.
James became a Matteo fatality !!
So hang in there N-2-see
These users thanked the author PullStrings for the post:
Matteo V (Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:21 am)
Rating: 10%

Frank82
Frequent Poster
Posts: 470
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:19 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: Wijk aan Zee, IJburg, Schellinkhout, Medemblik - Netherlands
Style: freestyle / wakestyle / freeride / wave
Gear: Best & Axis
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby Frank82 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:10 pm

In The Netherlands nobody uses an helmet unless they wave kite or foil. The only ones you see with helmets are students or tourists, they usually create their own danger by not knowing where and how to launch, how to rig for the wind/skill and all kinds of other kook behavior.

Helmets do increase the strain on the neck when impacting hard on the water (big air, megaloops, wakestyle), the only time helmets help is when hard objects are involved (rocks, surfboards, foils, handles, obstacles). Helmets have their use in those situations and it's actually smart to use them but for big air, megalooping and wakestyle I would never wear a helmet.

Common sense over safety equipment any day, with a lot of the tourists (especially from Germany) it's usually the opposite, lots of safety gear but no common sense.

User avatar
edt
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5461
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: Michigan
Gear: slingshot liquid force wainman pansh naish duotone cwb burton ronix rpm ozone
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby edt » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:22 pm

Almost all the fatalities happen on shore launching or landing. The head is merely a useful place to store if you are not launching or landing. It's not supposed to help you on the water while you are megalooping. The question is, if you are megalooping, is the risk increased by so much with the helmet compared to the risks of botched launch that it's not worth it? That I can't say.

Sarda
Rare Poster
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:04 pm
Kiting since: 0
Gear: Bit of everything
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Camber fatality

Postby Sarda » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:33 am


cwood
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:28 pm
Kiting since: 2014
Local Beach: Cherry Beach, Toronto
Gear: Flysurfer
Moses Hydrofoil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 29 times

Re: Camber fatality

Postby cwood » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:58 am

First day with a helmet for my girlfriend as she was slated to start foiling. Competent athlete and experienced kiter, botched kite landing in a squall. Would likely have been killed if she hadn't had the helmet on as she landed head first having been hung upside down from knee deep water onto rocky shore. She hit once. Compound arm fracture, one finger bent so far backward as to dislocate the knuckle and tear the skin almost all the way around (not line avulsion, full neoprene mitts on). You can prepare for the expected or you can prepare for the unexpected. We are bags of guts and generally pretty squishy. Arguing against helmets if you do anything other than twin tip in perfect sand beaches and clear weather.... is plain silly. Oh, and Mystic replaced the cut up drysuit at cost.

https://goo.gl/photos/BZ3cGjb7BsTemFN27


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], HALF, Hockeystar, longwhitecloud and 7 guests

cron