Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

today's best universal bars?

Forum for kitesurfers
Da Yoda
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:20 pm
Kiting since: 2005
Style: Strapless Freestyle, Wave, Freeride
Gear: Firewire/Tomo Surfboards
Loyd Surfboards
Brand Affiliation: iKitesurf
Location: Western USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby Da Yoda » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:31 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:32 pm
I must say you grossly overestimate what is "designed" in kites for "low V or high Y". Most if not all high Y kites work just as well or better with low V - as long as line length difference between two designs is compensated.
It's not me, it's the industry.
Our local shop, which sells the Duotone Trust c-bar, have sold them to customers that try to use it with their XYZ brand and quickly come to find out their kites back stall, feel different, or simply don't fly the same in a positive or improved way. After too many issues and thus returns, they will no longer allow sales or returns on Duotone Trust c-bars to those that are not using them with Duotone or North kites.
When given the chance they will ask what kite(s) the customer have or plan to have when purchasing the Duotone bar. If they don't have a North, Duotone, or some others like Core and older F-Ones, they sell them Slingshot c-bars since they will usually work well with other low-V designed kites. So far no issues and thus returns with the Slingshot c-bar which is a good testament.

I've had the same experience with several kites that I tested with my North Trust c-bar. Non of my kites were improved or flew just as well, so my experience quite differs from yours. I'm glad you're confident that it can "work just as well or better" in your experience. I'm also glad your technical speak supports my "YMMV" statements since I do know some that have found zero issues and even felt it was better using a high-Y front line c-bar with their low-V designed kites.

However there are simply too many variables with kite designs and rider experiences that play into what can "work just as well or better" for the masses. It really makes no sense to take the risk or deal with the hassle and cost of testing. Just keep it simple and get a c-bar that's designed and works with the kite(s) one flies. If you have a low-V kite, get a low-V c-bar (or one that adjusts) and get out there! Period

I'm also not going to get into the topic of line lengths and angles, but I can assure you I know exactly what you're talking about. Life's too short to explain. :bye:

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2907
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Style: Online kiteboard commenting, Fortnite.
Gear: World Sailing kite KOOKs. By kiters for kiters. #kitekooks
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby longwhitecloud » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:38 pm

That French bar and lines co is epic! It makes sense that there could be separate kite companies and separate bar and lines companies...

If you have the time to test out tuning and adjustments you will find that small changes can make a huge change in feel to a kite.

Da Yoda
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:20 pm
Kiting since: 2005
Style: Strapless Freestyle, Wave, Freeride
Gear: Firewire/Tomo Surfboards
Loyd Surfboards
Brand Affiliation: iKitesurf
Location: Western USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby Da Yoda » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:47 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:32 pm
Most if not all high Y kites work just as well or better with low V - as long as line length difference between two designs is compensated.
Btw, my post was about the opposite...

Most low-V kites work poorly with high-Y c-bars. This is a known fact!

Regarding your statement about line compensation... Yes one can add extensions to a their lines to compensate for the high-Y angle pull, but who wants to fly e.g. 24m lines with 10m+ extensions just to make their 10m low-V designed kite perform better?

kitexpert
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 763
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:20 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Gear: many kites, also diy
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby kitexpert » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:28 am

Da Yoda wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:47 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:32 pm
Most if not all high Y kites work just as well or better with low V - as long as line length difference between two designs is compensated.
Btw, my post was about the opposite...

Most low-V kites work poorly with high-Y c-bars. This is a known fact!
That is BS, if line lengths are correct.
Da Yoda wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:47 pm
Regarding your statement about line compensation... Yes one can add extensions to a their lines to compensate for the high-Y angle pull, but who wants to fly e.g. 24m lines with 10m+ extensions just to make their 10m low-V designed kite perform better?
:) It seems you don't understand at all what I meant with line length compensation. I suggest you make it clear to yourself how high Y and low V bar line lengths are defined and measured and how they can be made interchangeable.

User avatar
edt
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5416
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: Michigan
Gear: slingshot liquid force wainman pansh naish duotone cwb burton ronix rpm ozone
Has thanked: 23 times
Been thanked: 46 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby edt » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:58 am

There should be about 1 or 2 kilos pressure on the kites pulling inward if the lines and kite are the usual size if you use a high Y compare to low V. Most kites I have flown don't care too much if it's low V or high Y, but there are a few where it does matter, most like the low V one or two want the high Y. For a universal bar you certainly want a low V. Industry reps generally don't have knowledge about this stuff because they don't cross dress. I like most control bars today, except maybe switch, I still don't like their flagging system and core, because I own 6 or 7 control bars and have trained myself to release push away, I don't need the grief of having one that is twist and somehow don't release in time on that one control bar because I'm trying to push away.

Image

I've got a 30m control bar for light wind hydrofoiling, 5 line control bar, for my C kites 2:1 control bar (don't ask which kite this is for), 1 extra strong 20m line set for high wind, one cut down bar for twitchy kites, and a couple regular control bars so they all get used.


The swivel is so damn useless, though, get a control bar with below the bar manual untwister to undo twists not the spinner above the bar if you have a choice. That's my opinion.

Da Yoda
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:20 pm
Kiting since: 2005
Style: Strapless Freestyle, Wave, Freeride
Gear: Firewire/Tomo Surfboards
Loyd Surfboards
Brand Affiliation: iKitesurf
Location: Western USA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby Da Yoda » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:40 am

kitexpert wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:28 am

That is BS, if line lengths are correct.

It seems you don't understand at all what I meant with line length compensation. I suggest you make it clear to yourself how high Y and low V bar line lengths are defined and measured and how they can be made interchangeable.
If the c-bar is tuned correctly the lines should be CORRECT regardless if it’s a high-Y or low-V c-bar!

Key word is "Most" (low-V) kites, NOT ALL!
Like I said, I’m talking about the opposite of you, so this discussion is really moot.

Regarding line length compensation, I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your view on line compensation since you’re talking about if the “lines are correct” as though they’re not.

Please be clearer about line lengths that are NOT CORRECT. Example: Are you speaking about the fact that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line vs a bent or curved line? This would hold true regarding low-V vs High-Y lines, but the line-set is tuned to be CORRECT (equal) when attached to a kite. Since when did this change?

Since I’m talking about the opposite, I’m trying to understand your point of view when it’s reversed. I'd like to know your performed “line compensation” to allow a high-Y c-bar to “work just as well or better” on a low-V designed kite, especially when you confirmed it yourself about it’s negatives…
kitexpert wrote:In principle low V is better because pull is more "straight" down, extreme high Y is bad because it tries to compress kite wingtips closer to each other.
My line length compensation for a high-Y c-bar was to add equal line extensions to reduce the angle on the high-Y and thus reducing the wingtip compression and making the low-V designed kite fly more accordingly to how it was designed. I've actually done this and found it most beneficial on large size kites, but it still wasn't perfect. I'd actually like to hear your compensation ideas on this, truly. :)

Faxie
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:39 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Netherlands. Maasvlakte, Slufter, Domburg, Brouwersdam, Ouddorp, Vrouwenpolder, Grevelingen.
Style: Freeride, freestyle, wave.
Gear: Crazyfly Hyper 9m Element V3 7m V4 9m-5m
Crazyfly Bulldozer 2017 Firewire Hellrazor 6.1 timbertek Shinn Shinnster.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby Faxie » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:54 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:38 pm
That French bar and lines co is epic! It makes sense that there could be separate kite companies and separate bar and lines companies...

If you have the time to test out tuning and adjustments you will find that small changes can make a huge change in feel to a kite.
Pretty good bar, but the quick release could be better... the swivel is very tough to twist and the qr cap can get pulled out of its rails.

Faxie
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:39 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Netherlands. Maasvlakte, Slufter, Domburg, Brouwersdam, Ouddorp, Vrouwenpolder, Grevelingen.
Style: Freeride, freestyle, wave.
Gear: Crazyfly Hyper 9m Element V3 7m V4 9m-5m
Crazyfly Bulldozer 2017 Firewire Hellrazor 6.1 timbertek Shinn Shinnster.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby Faxie » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:57 am

edt wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:58 am
There should be about 1 or 2 kilos pressure on the kites pulling inward if the lines and kite are the usual size if you use a high Y compare to low V. Most kites I have flown don't care too much if it's low V or high Y, but there are a few where it does matter, most like the low V one or two want the high Y. For a universal bar you certainly want a low V. Industry reps generally don't have knowledge about this stuff because they don't cross dress. I like most control bars today, except maybe switch, I still don't like their flagging system and core, because I own 6 or 7 control bars and have trained myself to release push away, I don't need the grief of having one that is twist and somehow don't release in time on that one control bar because I'm trying to push away.

Image

I've got a 30m control bar for light wind hydrofoiling, 5 line control bar, for my C kites 2:1 control bar (don't ask which kite this is for), 1 extra strong 20m line set for high wind, one cut down bar for twitchy kites, and a couple regular control bars so they all get used.


The swivel is so damn useless, though, get a control bar with below the bar manual untwister to undo twists not the spinner above the bar if you have a choice. That's my opinion.
Flagging system of Switch is the same as Ozone?...

Or do you mean the older bars?

knotwindy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1473
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:49 am
Kiting since: 2007
Local Beach: baja, gorge
Style: erratic to none
Gear: yes, I use gear
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 34 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby knotwindy » Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:35 am

Just cause
High Y vs low V line lengths
When you measure line being equal you do it in a straight line to a single point but this is not how they are hooked to the kite. They are off to the sides. So, on a low V setup there is a fairly straight line to the kite. With a high Y the line goes straight up towards the kite and then ‘bends’ to the side. If you measure these two line relative to each other, the high Y bent line will cover a longer distance and be, therefore, functional shorter. So you need to extend the bridle on the kite or shorten the rear lines to compensate. On the old (old)North Fuse there were 2 different attachment points to fly it 4 or 5 line because the split point (Y vs V) was different just for this reason. The different points were not different on the kite, just front line length changes. Just saying.
These users thanked the author knotwindy for the post:
kitexpert (Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:34 pm)
Rating: 10%

nothing2seehere
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 595
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:25 pm
Kiting since: 2012
Local Beach: Calshot, Hayling, Meon - Southcoast UK
Gear: Ocean Rodeo Flite, Ocean rodeo jester, Airush Ultra and Union, shinn boards
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: today's best universal bars?

Postby nothing2seehere » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:56 am

I have one of the KiteAttitude bars. Its good value. Has an easy QR reconnect. I didn't spec up the lines but I like that the option is there. The colours are awful but hey. I actually tried to order the pink and white bar because its closer to the standard red and white colours but ended up being sent the green/blue combination.

Also just picked up a Harlem bar as they have a sale on at the moment. Its a rebranded Ocean rodeo shift bar with an optional Y height split point. Haven't tested it on a high Y kite yet. If I'm picky, the rubber grip is more slippery than I would have expected but this could be also because its a much fatter bar than I'm used to.

Can't compare it really to my click bar as one has 20m lines and the other 24m lines so I'm going to see big differences anyway. I kind of like it that way as I can choose a bar depending on whether the wind is due to pick up or drop off.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 16 guests

cron