Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Forum for kitesurfers
tomtom
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:00 am
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby tomtom » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:48 am

never wrap kite around bar - always leave bar on side /mean still attached but not inside/. Much less chance to do all magic written above
These users thanked the author tomtom for the post:
foilholio (Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:33 pm)
Rating: 10%

slowboat
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Style: wave foiling
Gear: This and that
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby slowboat » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:35 am

OzBungy wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:13 am
slowboat wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:01 am
I leave a bar attached in all my foil kites. Works well most of the time but every now and then the inside and outs lines on one side end up twisted around each other and I have to detach a line to untwist. How to prevent? Thanks
I am happy to be corrected, but as far as I can see what you are describing is impossible. There is no way a single back line can tangle around a single front line.

The whole bar or whole kite has to pass through the lines for a crossover to happen.

You can have the kite or bar pass between the front lines, which will result in both rear lines through the front lines.

You can have the kite or bar pass between the opposite front and rear, which will result in one rear line wrapped around both front lines.

The most likely thing is you simply allowed a single loop of line to fall the wrong side of the bar when unwinding. That's an easy mistake to make. It's also possible for a tip of the kite to flop through the lines after landing. The end result is the same.
I think you and tomtom (and others) are correct. I may be wrong about exactly what is twisted because I land the kite in frustration and disconnect things. Doesn't change the problem however or the solution. I also think you are correct in that the twist most likely occurs while unwinding as you describe above. I am having a harder time picturing the kite going thru the lines after landing.

By the way, I always keep the bar separate from the kite (for rinsing and drying purposes).

kiter4fun123
Rare Poster
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:40 am
Style: TT and hydrofoil in light wind
Gear: flysurfer, naish, nobile
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby kiter4fun123 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 pm

Hi!

I used to have line mess with my foil kites quite offten before I started packing them in the same way they came "new"
from the producer (in this case flysurfer).
The trick is to tie ALL the 4 lines up and then put them on the opposite side of the bridle (the leading edge side)

First loop / tie the front line and the steering line on each side (= 2 knots)
Then loop / tie these lines together and just through them over the leading edge far away from all the bridle mess.
Roll up your kite and make sure you big knot is outside of the rolled up kite.

Since I started with this technique around half a year ago (inspried by how my new soul 8m was packed from factory (same))
I've not had one single line mess.

I guess it's difficult to follow by text, if there's time I might post a video ;)
These users thanked the author kiter4fun123 for the post:
Delta99 (Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:41 pm)
Rating: 10%

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3433
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 227 times
Been thanked: 143 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby foilholio » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:11 pm

slowboat wrote: I leave a bar attached in all my foil kites.


Good
slowboat wrote:Works well most of the time but every now and then the inside and outs lines on one side end up twisted around each other


You have passed the bar or kite through something when either packing up or setting up.
slowboat wrote: and I have to detach a line to untwist.
No you don't. Only if you were unaware of passing the bar though the lines would you do that.
dejavu wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:10 am
My thoughts are that the safety of running out and attaching lines each session is a good thing.
Running lines out is good to check them particularly with feel, but that has nothing to do with leaving them attached or detached. Detaching your lines is less safe as it allows contamination of the connection, plus twist of the lines.
slowboat wrote: sometimes all 4 lines don't unwrap together....so you have 2 or 3 lines unwrapping by themselves for a while....
well that won't help
slowboat wrote: I think if a always carefully wind and unwind all 4 lines together, twisting cannot physically happen.
In theory yes it can not happen in practice though no it happens, because mistakes.
slowboat wrote: The twist I am referring to is the lines on one side(left side for example) are crossed.
Steering line wrapped around center lines. Very easy to fix.
slowboat wrote: Kite will still fly OK but you look up and the left 2 lines cross each other.


You should not be flying and especially not launching a kite with crossed lines. This is very poor safety and gear handling.
slowboat wrote: You can probably correct it by some manipulation of the bar


You can. Barend of wrapped side though between other steering line and center then twist bar to unwrap center. Takes 5 seconds to do.
slowboat wrote:but the easiest way is to put the kite down and disconnect one or both of the left lines.


Not even remotely easier. That is like saying it is easier to cut a shoelace than untie it. It makes little sense knowing you can untie it, but then you don't know....
deniska wrote: Don't you guys rinse your bars in freshwater and dry them?
Yep
deniska wrote:If you wrap the kite around a wet bar
Why?

Actually I do know why, but I don't because something like
deniska wrote: you'll end up with some mold, line shrinkage and rust on some bar parts..
Though mold with salt is not easy and line shrinkage other than usual is unlikely, rust is guaranteed.
deniska wrote:like shown in latest flysurfer videos
They make nice kites but don't have the best info on how to use them.

slowboat
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Style: wave foiling
Gear: This and that
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 69 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby slowboat » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:21 pm

deniska wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:57 am
my biggest issue with packing the bar attached to the kite is that it's either wet or/and has tons of sand on it.
Don't you guys rinse your bars in freshwater and dry them?
If you wrap the kite around a wet bar, like shown in latest flysurfer videos, I'd guess you'll end up with some mold, line shrinkage and rust on some bar parts..
I leave bar attached but leave it outside the kite bag and rinse the bar after each use. Some kites come with bags that have a bar retention system. Otherwise, you can use a cheap compression bag and use the compression straps to hold your bar.

Kristan
Medium Poster
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:50 am
Local Beach: Plescheevo lake
Style: Freeride
Gear: Kites: Flysurfer Soul 12m, Blade Fat Lady 17m, Flysurfer Pulse2 14m. Boards: Crazyfly Raptor 140x42, Flysurfer Flydoor4 170x50
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Russia, Moscow
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby Kristan » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:40 pm

deniska wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:57 am
my biggest issue with packing the bar attached to the kite is that it's either wet or/and has tons of sand on it.
Don't you guys rinse your bars in freshwater and dry them?
If you wrap the kite around a wet bar, like shown in latest flysurfer videos, I'd guess you'll end up with some mold, line shrinkage and rust on some bar parts..
If my bar is wet I don't roll it inside my kite, I leave it on the outside.

First, I wrap my lines in figure 8, leaving some length prior to mixer. Then I put the bar at the wing tip area, so most of bridle lines would lie inside the kite. Then I put the bar close to the middle of the kite at the trailing edge. That's when I fold the kite in two and wrap it. Bar stays outside, so I put it into the separated bar bag and put everything inside the kite bag, not closing it entirely, so bar could dry on itself, or could be pulled out to be dried without unrolling the whole kite.

OzBungy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:35 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 52 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby OzBungy » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:58 pm

I am not a fan of leaving bars attached to kites. I share one bar between several kites and I don't want to leave a wet sandy bar in contact with the kite material. I like to give the bar a good wash after each session.

This is more important with foil kites because the material is much lighter and more fragile.

It doesn't matter what method you use to attach the lines as long as it is simple and repeatable. It only takes a little practice to work something out.

I simply tie the ends of the bridles together to avoid bridle tangles. Some kites have tabs on the trailing edge to park your bridles.

The problems you have with tangles have nothing to do with setup. They are caused because you did not check properly before launch. It does not matter what method you use to set up, you must check every single line thoroughly. The checking process is an acquired skill. With practice it is very easy and reliable.
Last edited by OzBungy on Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3433
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 227 times
Been thanked: 143 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby foilholio » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:33 pm

Detaching the bar from a foil kite I think is incredibly stupid. It ruins what I find is one of the main advantages to foil kites, being fast setup and somewhat as well the pack down. Leaving the lines attached as well seems to prevent the dreaded twist lines get that causes them to wind and knot together. That is of course if the twists have been removed or not added before attaching them. Which is actually a process, especially it the maker has incorrectly despooled etc the line.


To avoid hassles with the lines when attached, wind them up past the mixer onto the bar, when unwinding stop at the mixer and check for pass throughs, i.e. lines should not cross through the mixer, use a downwind launch as it is easier to sort out the lines with tension etc, when at the bar sort out crossed lines with the bar, never ever disconnect lines to sort out a tangle, that is a big mistake.

The main methods for dealing with crossed lines and twists at the bar, are to first try untwisting them, then find the first cross by pulling at lines while they have tension to see how they cross then either pass the bar through the center lines, or barend through one side or I think also can be around one side, all depending on how the line needs to go to unwrap. Always use the line to guide you how to unwrap. The same is said for tangles, leave it attached always and use the line to find how to untangle. You follow lines into tangles to get them out. Never pull a tangle tight, which is different from twists and wraps, tangles will knot if you pull them tight and you will turn a 1-5min problem into an hour, disconnect something and you could spend hours.

PullStrings
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:54 pm
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: LEI's & Surfboards
Has thanked: 71 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby PullStrings » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:40 pm

OzBungy wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:58 pm
I am not a fan of leaving bars attached to kites. I share one bar between several kites and I don't want to leave a wet sandy bar in contact with the kite material. I like to give the bar a good wash after each session.
I'm a really real big fan of leaving lines on
Been doing from the very beginning with ram airs and tubes
Now only have tubes and they all have their own lines and bars attached
Over half a dozen of them
All riding is done at sandy beach
Wet bar never gets sandy
Never rinse anything
Don't put your bar on the sand
Put it on your kite or on your board at all times after a session
Never had any twists or problems setting up
Leave bar outside and on top of your folded kite
Working on your technique and getting down to a science is the trick with leaving bar attached
Last edited by PullStrings on Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OzBungy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:35 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 52 times

Re: Leaving bar attached to foil kites: why do lines twist?

Postby OzBungy » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:43 am

It is not stupid to remove your lines if you want to. It is just different. As long as you have a simple, repeatable process to do the connection and properly do line, pulley and bridle checks every time then you will be fine.

One the other hand, leaving out the checks because you have some "special" process is an extremely bad idea. It's not so bad in kiting, but in paragliding people end up dead because they did not do thorough checks.

No matter what process you use you must walk the lines. You must sight each line from bar to kite. You must check A,B and C bridles and brake lines. You must check each pulley for free operation.
foilholio wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:33 pm
..., never ever disconnect lines to sort out a tangle, that is a big mistake.
....
Why would you say that? How could it be a mistake? I find it incredibly easy to walk the lines from bar to kite, unhook the back lines, reconnect, and go. It is effortless and reliable.

Some crossovers can be confusing, especially if there are multiple crosses involved. It's easy enough to deal with the simple case, but complicated crosses can involve multiple passes through the lines and you have to get them in the right order and direction. Why mess around doing something complicated when simply walking the lines and resetting fixes the problem?

Certainly leave things connected if that is how you want to do it. Don't try to make a virtue out of it. The only thing that is non-negotiable is being certain that everything is correct. In my experience laziness and trying to rush things or shortcut things is the only bad practice.
Last edited by OzBungy on Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Delta99, knot_moving, knotwindy, MSN [Bot], Peter_Frank and 44 guests