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Surfboard weight

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BWD
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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby BWD » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:28 am

Matteo did you know you CAN ride a hydrofoil on the surface?
Even I can for short periods. Skilled riders can do it for a long time if they want. It’s not convenient unless at the crest of a wind wave or heading 130+ offwind, but it works.
Why? Because it makes lift, from water flowing against the angled plane of its bottom surface. Just like a planing boat or a skimboard etc.
This is typical of the points your long rants miss...
No doubt there are other flaws in your effort to take apart my post, but it’s too long to read.
I am only writing about very basic things known to be true here.
That’s all I have to say for the moment.

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Did I say surfboards ?
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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby BigZ » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:39 am

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:01 am

BIG NAMES!........all cater to the market.....and that is what they produce for.......the market........and it is hard to sell outside of the established norms......as with any sport.....just look how long it took for us to get the nose cut off of kitesurfboards.....oh, wait.....they still have lots of noses.....that we don't need.......

Plus, they are prone surfers....which is where the "surfboard foil" thing comes from, and is actually useful in.....but is not in kitesurfing....so they, as does every other kiteboarder, put up with lower performance.......and their sales volume mostly comes from prone surfing.....not kitesurfing......so why cater to a minority market???????
i rest my case.

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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby Matteo V » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:40 am

BWD wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:28 am
Matteo did you know you CAN ride a hydrofoil on the surface?
Even I can for short periods. Skilled riders can do it for a long time if they want. It’s not convenient unless at the crest of a wind wave or heading 130+ offwind, but it works.
Why? Because it makes lift, from water flowing against the angled plane of its bottom surface. Just like a planing boat or a skimboard etc.
This is typical of the points your long rants miss...
Saying that a Boeing 737 wing is capable of planing on water for a few seconds as the airplane is crashing on the seas surface does what for who's argument?

I can ride a surfboard upside down for a while too. What does that prove? Maybe reversing "surfboard foil"? I can ride a blow up doll with a kite and almost make it upwind. So does the blow up doll, having more volume and some "nice blow up foil", mean that it is better than a low volume board? Heck, I could jump off of my board and body surf a wave in. Would that be better than a board that actually has some more performance than my f-t a-s?

You are reaching with this one. And you are alluding to there being a debate on the physics of the situation, which are directly observable by you or any other kiter. You don't need a book. You don't need youtube to explain it to you. The following is just plain obvious if you think about it for a second:

The physics of displacement are not in dispute.
The physics of planing are not in dispute.
The physics of foil sections, even flat plates, are not in dispute.
They are 3 distinctly different modes.

And you have done much to facilitate some learning by others in the forum here. I, and possibly they, appreciate it greatly.

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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby Matteo V » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:48 am

BigZ wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:39 am
i rest my case.
'Don't give up Bizy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M991OLPW_jw

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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby PrfctChaos » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:06 am

Alas, another thread that got f#$%ed up beyond repair. Time to stop reading.

Startet out with a good question and genuinely interresting. Then deteriorated into junk.

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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby omg » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:11 am

cannot recall how this thread evolved to volume thread, but as a sideline, I agree with Matteo that volume doesn't matter much in kiting if any. I think some of the reason why current kitesurfboard manufacturers do thick boards is the durability; they would need to change the structure of the boards as I don't think that if halved the thickness of the current boards they would snap in half in no time. Like Matteo said, skimboards plane very well in very low speeds, it's the planing (bottom board) area which matters (with rockers etc). And with the pull of the kite, anything planes well and once moving, you have enough speed to plane, on the wave or not. My strapless freestyle board is 5'0 x 18,3" and 1" thick (14 litres) and flex is awesome, planes very early with a pop like there's no tomorrow :)

Anyhow, the weight discussion was useful so it would be great to get back to that topic. I'm always looking for lighter and truly flexible boards.

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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby Matteo V » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:44 pm

omg wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:11 am
cannot recall how this thread evolved to volume thread, but as a sideline, I agree with Matteo that volume doesn't matter much in kiting if any. I think some of the reason why current kitesurfboard manufacturers do thick boards is the durability; they would need to change the structure of the boards as I don't think that if halved the thickness of the current boards they would snap in half in no time. Like Matteo said, skimboards plane very well in very low speeds, it's the planing (bottom board) area which matters (with rockers etc). And with the pull of the kite, anything planes well and once moving, you have enough speed to plane, on the wave or not. My strapless freestyle board is 5'0 x 18,3" and 1" thick (14 litres) and flex is awesome, planes very early with a pop like there's no tomorrow :)

Anyhow, the weight discussion was useful so it would be great to get back to that topic. I'm always looking for lighter and truly flexible boards.
Some call it 'a thread getting f#$%ed up beyond repair'. I would call it a discussion.

Original post was about weight, which is related to construction, which is related to volume, which is related to shape, which is also related to flex......which you just mentioned - FLEX! That is how things get off the rails, though I would call it right on track. 99% of the questions here need many perspectives to get to the root of what the OP wants. Sometimes they are looking at it from a narrow perspective and off topic discussion broadens their views. I like every one else, typically have my own stubbornly entrenched ideas. Without challenge, I have little chance of figuring it out on my own.

The alternative would limiting the replies to no more than, say, 3. So maybe jumpy, BWD, and Bizy, get in a the beginning - then the thread would be locked. This would prevent any "triggering" off topic discussion. Then the forum would die, and we could all discuss things with poeple that think exactly like ourselves in a closed facebook group.

So do you see why Toby supporting this forum is so important! He is facilitating the only free thought platform in all of the worlds kiteboarding. Be thankful. Push the cart off the rails if you want. It helps, or does nothing. But doing nothing ABSOLUTELY DOES NOTHING.

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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby RalfsB » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:41 pm

omg wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:11 am
... I agree with Matteo that volume doesn't matter much in kiting if any. I think some of the reason why current kitesurfboard manufacturers do thick boards is the durability; they would need to change the structure of the boards as I don't think that if halved the thickness of the current boards they would snap in half in no time. ...
Volume vs no volume probably is a matter of personal preference. I actually prefer boards with volume for a couple of reasons: if you lose a board in choppy seas/waves then it is much easier to see and retrieve a volume board. Also volume boards hurt less if they bump into you. I also prefer rounded rails, they are more forgiving and have gentler and more progressive hold when you are on a wave.

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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby elguapo » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:58 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 7:09 am
Trent hink wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:12 am
I know of a few guys who can tear up waves pretty well on a skimboard, but I'm not one of them and I very much prefer a board with "some" volume in the waves.

Matteo, you should look up "surfboard foil" as it is considered a very basic concept in surfboard design.
As for the skimboard.....Why is there virtually no volume to that type of boards????? BECAUSE YOU DO NOT PRONE PADDLE IT.......Volume is NOT necessary for anything useful once the speed of 2-3knots is reached. This is because planning forces take over once you hit 2-3knots of water speed with a surfboard/skimboard in deep water. Similar to when kitesurfing, skimboarding gets it's energy to plane from somewhere else besides using your hands to paddle onto the wave. In kitesurfing, the kite gets you up onto plane, completely skipping the displacement mode of surfing. In skimboarding, the run and throw gets you to planing speeds, also completely skipping the displacement mode.



Maybe you could elaborate or provide some links as to what you are referring to by "surfboard foil" as a "very basic concept in surfboard design". I am pretty sure any search will yield only that which is referenced to attached modern hydrofoil systems.

What I am assuming you are referring to is the likeliness to a foil shape that a surfboard has to a foil section. But by definition, a working foil section much have the same media flowing above it, as flows below it. And that is not the case with a surfboard. A surfboard is a planning vessel, not a hydrofoiling one. The distribution of volume in a prone surfboard is primarily necessitated by having volume where you CAN have, and CANNOT have, that volume. Low volume in a tail is desirable because low volume gets your foot closer to the planing surface under it, thus allowing more direct control when standing on it. Volume at the front foot is OK because having the front foot further away from the planning surface below it is not extremely detrimental to control. And throughout the board, volume is placed so that the board will paddle by hand onto a wave easily. Volume has nothing to do with how a board "rides" other than excessive volume hindering overall planning performance and control.



So the eureka moment for me was when I realized that volume only produces a force when that volume is submerged below the waterline. But once submerged, that force is not only minimal (and losing the battle against your weight in a very dynamic way), but it is also extremely unstable when submerged. The less volume to the board that is submerged below you, the more stable it is. Think about standing on a submerged beach ball in the waves - pretty unstable right? All of your energy goes into not falling over and the beach ball shooting up out of the water and into the air/away from you. Now think about removing most of the air from the beach ball......More stable right? Less "shooty" up out of water and into the air???

I used to think about 2 things in kitesurfing from the stand point of a surfer and windsurfer. They were (1) that straps sucked and were worthless and (2) that volume was a good thing. Both of those ideas that I clung to for a very long time, are absolutely wrong. At the root of why I was so wrong for so long, is that I never truly understood how either of the above actually worked, and/or what they were for. At least not until I really looked at things in an objective manner, did some comparisons, and asked "why". So give that a shot. Ask yourself:

1. Why can't I prone surf a wakeboard, but I can prone surf a surfboard?
2. Why can I kite a wakeboard and I can also kite a prone surfboard?
3. Why are high performance prone surfboards so low in volume compared to lower performance prone surfboards being higher in volume?
4. Why is it not only possible, but no big deal at all, to use a tiny kitesurfboard to kitesurf when I could never dream of using that same tiny board for prone surfing?
5. Why do I not really need a bigger/higher volume board when kitesurfing in more mushy/slow waves?

The answer, common to all 5 of these questions is that volume is only necessary for paddling onto a wave, while at the same time volume is detrimental to overall performance of the system once up on a plane.
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omg
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Re: Surfboard weight

Postby omg » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:14 pm

RalfsB wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:41 pm
omg wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:11 am
... I agree with Matteo that volume doesn't matter much in kiting if any. I think some of the reason why current kitesurfboard manufacturers do thick boards is the durability; they would need to change the structure of the boards as I don't think that if halved the thickness of the current boards they would snap in half in no time. ...
Volume vs no volume probably is a matter of personal preference. I actually prefer boards with volume for a couple of reasons: if you lose a board in choppy seas/waves then it is much easier to see and retrieve a volume board. Also volume boards hurt less if they bump into you. I also prefer rounded rails, they are more forgiving and have gentler and more progressive hold when you are on a wave.
Thing is that you can still have full volume rails with a thin board, like mine. Problem solved.


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