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Beginner going upwind question

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HALF
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby HALF » Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:46 pm

badgb21 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:36 pm
you should struggle not to go upwind ;)
This is something that happens to me often, I go so much upwind that I have to do several long downwind tacks on purpose to go close to the shore again, if I try to stay the same distance it works, but when I just have fun and enjoy the speed I always end up way behind everyone else, that is annoying :D
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sergei Scotland (Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:58 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby grigorib » Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:11 pm

Sometimes even experienced guys seem to struggle going upwind as much as they’d want to - fluky wind, wind shadows near surface, kites which sit deep in the wind window, boards with excessive rocker, currents - any and all of these might mess up with ease of upwind.

A kite with high AR will generally sit closer to the edge of the window and deliver easiest upwind (but worse relaunch and almost uncontrollable power at looping) so there are factors beyond rider sense and experience
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sergei Scotland (Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:59 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby Mike101 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:07 pm

Riding with the bar in or out wont makes a huge diffference to your potential unwind speed and angle.

A lot of people say trim the kite until it backstalls. Yes- that is ideal in warm sunny climates when the wind gets switched on at 11am and runs at 18knots until 6. If you live somewhere stormy and gusty you really will need the right kite to progress quickly. In those conditions it's best to select a kite with huge depower, work the kite and set the trim so that 100% depower is achieved at full arm stretch. If you cant fully depower the kite the gusts will have you tripping over the rail. Learn to control your speed with edging. Learn how how you can edge hard to kill speed. Learn that- when stupidly over powered and going far too fast- sending the kite to 12 and riding directly under it is your best chance of recovery.

The best thing is to watch experienced riders and copy their stance and angle.

Best tips I heard...
Point the big toe of your front foot where you want to go.
Release your front hand and drop your shoulder. Get your chest square with where you want to go.
You probably know exactly what to do. Dont over think just do. Theres so much going on it is really difficult to consciously make decisions about what to change as it all happens so quickly. When someone shouts 'sad it harder' 'ride faster' - whatever - only make a 5% change, or less, to what you were doing before. Easy does it always.
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sergei Scotland (Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:00 pm) • NoHater (Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:39 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby ThickAir » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:51 pm

Just ask someone who can kite well to get in front of you and simply follow them. It sounds stupid, but it absolutely works.
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sergei Scotland (Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:01 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby Matteo V » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:26 pm

badgb21 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:36 pm
Hey Sergei
Good to hear you are still at it!

My 2 cents for novice good upwind:
1. You need plenty of wind. Measure it and be sure you have plenty.
It's likely that you will achieve your first up wind progress when you do have plenty of wind. But your time spent in "not quite enough wind" is more valuable then your time in good winds.

Handling lulls is the real key to getting up wind. Kiters that can just barely make it up wind often will lose that up wind progress messing with the kite in the lull. Water starting in a lull proceeding a gust, can actually set you up for upwind success better than just knowing how to ride upwind in the gust.

So don't avoid kiting in light winds just because you can't make it up wind at this point in your experience. Look at it more as getting the experience needed for all conditions, not just ideal ones.
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sergei Scotland (Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:01 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby Havre » Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:48 am

I don’t know the physics of it, but to me sheeting seems to be of limited importance - or at least there are other things beginners should focus on first. I have seen beginners with hardly any kite control go upwind fine due to good edging technique. Typically people used to snowboarding - where they are far more advanced at handling the board than they kiting experience would suggest.

I think there are some good advice on body position in here. To me that combined with a feeling of how hard you can lean back without killing your speed is key to going upwind.

My best advice would be to get someone to film you. I’m still surprised when I watch myself riding how different it sometimes looks compared to how it felt. Then it is just a matter of hours on the water. Most of us have struggled with going upwind. One day it just works.
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sergei Scotland (Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:12 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby sergei Scotland » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:54 pm

Thanks everyone, lots of things to think about/try.
I guess the answer from you all to my original question was that sheeting in or out does not change kite position in the wind window that much, but general consensus seems to be sheeting out makes kite move forward in the window a bit.
My guess is that reducing angle of attack allows kite to fly forward faster (less drag) so it ends up slightly more ahead of the rider that way? Is this a decent description of what happens? Or in other words kite is farther away from stall so flies forward faster?
I guess this also means that kites with less drag (thinner leading edge tube, thin profile etc) go upwind better?
Thanks again everyone! 😊

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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby sergei Scotland » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:08 pm

badgb21 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:36 pm
Hey Sergei
Good to hear you are still at it!
Hey! You bet! Getting better too ☺.
Was in Fuerteventura - Flag Beach and had a blast!
Still just about stay upwind but most of the time I kite in waves, sometimes biggish 5 feet like in the Flag beach so I guess this makes it harder...
Thanks for your video and all your great videos, really appreciated.
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badgb21 (Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:11 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby Exal » Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:18 pm

What helped me was to go slower and to take one hand off the bar. Especially the speed since you can ride along really slowly, assuming you have good wind like you said. At first I went too much upwind and just stopped and had to start again. Took a bit of trial and error but in the end the whole going upwind thing made more sense.
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sergei Scotland (Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:47 pm)
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Re: Beginner going upwind question

Postby Herman » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:36 pm

Sergie
Simplistically there will be an optimum sheeting angle, an optimum kite height, an optimum speed, optimum edging, etc to maximize vmg for any given set of conditions and of course conditions are changing all the time.

To get a feel for sheeting I would recommend that you start riding at a good speed on a comfortable close reach, then start sheeting out gently and progressively. As you are a newbie It is quite likely that you will find that you do not lose any speed as you do your initial sheeting out. In fact it is quite likely that you will maintain speed and feel more comfortable.
Repeat this check close-hauled and do it regularly and it may help you develop a feel for sheeting.
A good initial approach to sheeting for getting up wind is to keep sheeted out as much as possible without losing significant speed. You will find this easier with more power.

Regards Herman

PS:. Similarly you may also find it helpful to occasionally focus just on the board, ie. leave the kite alone and just maintain speed by direction and degree of edging. It is not until it all becomes a natural unconscious response that you will get anywhere near optimization of vmg. If you are riding outside the break in a fair size sea state board control and what I call reading the water is particularly important.
Last edited by Herman on Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:30 am, edited 5 times in total.
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