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Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

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Matteo V
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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby Matteo V » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:46 am

tautologies wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:58 am
Oh bullshit. You talk about science, what science can or cannot do but you cite absolute nonsense.
No, the reasoning behind why science is manipulated IS evidence for the motives of those who have a demonstrable agenda.

And yes, I talk about science. Science pretty straight forward in it's methods.

Would you disagree that science seeks challenge to prove or disprove theory? What would you say about "science" in the muddled mess that is this politicized issue?

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby tautologies » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:52 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:46 am

No, the reasoning behind why science is manipulated IS evidence for the motives of those who have a demonstrable agenda.

And yes, I talk about science. Science pretty straight forward in it's methods.

Would you disagree that science seeks challenge to prove or disprove theory? What would you say about "science" in the muddled mess that is this politicized issue?
Who demonstrably have an agenda?

What I would say about science is that you have to understand the scientific process to disprove a theory. Most denial nonsense is kind of like the flat earthers that try to prove the earth if flat and they keep on proving that it is in fact, not flat. yet they keep on digging.
So I think you might misunderstand a few things. Science is a lot of different things depending on what branch of knowledge you are working on. This makes it a bit hard to understand because it has different levels of standards, (but if you are interested you can get a good foundation by reading Poppers scientific epistemology).

Just as a matter of clarification, a theory can never be proven. That does not make it untrue. A theory should also be falsifiable. Now to become a theory, you have to put your earlier starting points and hypothesis through rigorous testing.
The theory of gravity is a good example. And as it happens so are human influences on climate change.
Reading and citing conspiracy nonsense will never get you there.

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby Havre » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:28 am

On the topic of never getting there - trying to get Matteo V to see your point of view, modify his opinion etc. falls firmly into that category.

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby gotKite » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:07 am

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:45 am
gotKite wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:42 pm
Then post some official statement of the scientists that have changed their mind here.
Again, something more than luck would be required to "change the mind" of extremists.
I can't believe you're calling scientists "extremists". And of course you don't want to communicate with the scientific community because they would easily disprove what you're saying.
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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:14 am

tautologies wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:52 am
Who demonstrably have an agenda?

What I would say about science is that you have to understand the scientific process to disprove a theory. Most denial nonsense is kind of like the flat earthers that try to prove the earth if flat and they keep on proving that it is in fact, not flat. yet they keep on digging.
So I think you might misunderstand a few things. Science is a lot of different things depending on what branch of knowledge you are working on. This makes it a bit hard to understand because it has different levels of standards, (but if you are interested you can get a good foundation by reading Poppers scientific epistemology).

Just as a matter of clarification, a theory can never be proven. That does not make it untrue. A theory should also be falsifiable. Now to become a theory, you have to put your earlier starting points and hypothesis through rigorous testing.
The theory of gravity is a good example. And as it happens so are human influences on climate change.
Reading and citing conspiracy nonsense will never get you there.
Who doesn't have an agenda?

The problem with "deniers" is that the denier label is applied to anyone who is skeptical in any way of the conclusion that "mankind is causing global warming and we'll all be barbecue in 15 years" or whatever it is that is actually being claimed (kinda hard to pin it down, the goal posts keep being moved).

You don't have to be a scientist to understand scientific method.

To tie this back into the "agenda" point, have a close look at the Cook report -- the one the "97% consensus" comes from... you don't have to be a climate scientist or statistician to spot the problems.

It really is the worst kind of theater and distracting from the actual data ... which is bad enough in and of itself.

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:19 am

gotKite wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:07 am
I can't believe you're calling scientists "extremists". And of course you don't want to communicate with the scientific community because they would easily disprove what you're saying.
He's not -- he's (probably) calling the extremists extremists ;) have a look at the Cook report, the one that gets dragged out for "consensus". Claiming "97% agree" etc etc is literally taking the extreme case and exaggerating actual results.

Why? Because there's an agenda to push, probably. If you want to be cynical about it.

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby Pemba » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:58 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:19 am
Why? Because there's an agenda to push, probably. If you want to be cynical about it.
As you said, who doesn't have an agenda ? I don't even think you have to be cynical to see the world that way. It's easy to see who might be pushing the "there's no climate change caused by humans" (or however you might want to summarize it) agenda. Big oil, "the establishment" etc. Who's pushing the other side ? It seems few could compete with the first, yet most news outlets appear to support the "climate change caused by humans" agenda. But I guess you could make that argument for the vaccination debate (big pharma vs ??), and thats real as well.

Why would "proof" be essential before considering action ? If there's a reasonable likelihood that the "climate change caused by humans" lobby is right and given the large amount of scientists that agrees with this hypothesis I think there is, should we not do something ? Maybe it's all a conspiracy but personally I don't want to take that risk.

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby Matteo V » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:19 pm

gotKite wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:07 am
I can't believe you're calling scientists "extremists". And of course you don't want to communicate with the scientific community because they would easily disprove what you're saying.
Any trained scientist who would falsify data is an extremist. No amount of fear of the future should ever sway a rational left or right leaning person from the truth to the point where they cherry pick data, "modify data", blatantly falsify data, or use propaganda and threats to prove your make their case.

None of those challenges, of which there are many examples like the Brazil temps, have been addressed in a rational way.

So yes, there are extremist scientists that have a definite emotional, monetary, and political agenda.

But outside of anthropogenic climate change, there have been many other examples of scientists going to extreme's to prove they are right. From the Polio vaccine to Nuclear power, science is sold to the public by those who wish to profit and "be correct".

Unfortunately, the jury is not just out or still being selected in the anthropogenic climate change debate, humans are still examining the case for enough evidence to be able to present.

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby knotwindy » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Just as a curiosity and to see where folks are starting from

Is there anyone on here that thinks that 7+ billion people are having no effect on the planet/climate?

If we are having an effect, whether for positive or negative being quite unknowable at this stage, are we interested in doing something to adapt our behavior?

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Re: Should professional kiters carbon offset their (many) flights?

Postby iriejohn » Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:53 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:38 pm
Just as a curiosity and to see where folks are starting from

Is there anyone on here that thinks that 7+ billion people are having no effect on the planet/climate?

If we are having an effect, whether for positive or negative being quite unknowable at this stage, are we interested in doing something to adapt our behavior?
The real question is: exactly what effect are 7bn+ people having on the climate? Until the causes are known human behaviour can not be changed to mitigate this as yet undetermined effect.
Last edited by iriejohn on Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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