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Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby slide » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:58 pm

this is great , thread no 2, so we are talking at least even if those who find it the most annoying , just can't keep away and just get cold chicken/turkey for another hit of "toby plz delete this thread because it annoys me ," reasons to be cheerfull ,part 3, reasons to be cheerfull, 1,2,3
Last edited by slide on Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby grigorib » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:05 pm

No wind probably...

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby Blackened » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:13 pm

foilholio wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:56 pm
More absurdity. Delusion builds upon delusion. So the sun is weaker 4 billion years ago, but evidence doesn't align so they compensate with greenhouse gases and that then confirms the alarmism with current climate theories. At the heart of it all is the preposterous notion you can know what happened exactly 4 billion years ago and also what is then and now the composition of the sun in entirety. I must say at some point do you not wonder if you are in a cult because it is all very far fetched. Science is great when it is dealing with what it can observe and test outside that it has proven incredibly unreliable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faint_young_Sun_paradox


All it takes is a misunderstanding in atomic decay and the whole thing is turned on it's head. Let alone getting into the laws of physics possibly not being static. The time scales to be certain on these things are beyond human comprehension. You even get stuck in the present at the quantum and there is no precision at all just probabilities. At the smallest scale we can only guess a range, at the longest time scales we can only estimate based that everything has continued as it is now back till then and of ultimate consequence is what we can predict into the future, the past appears to have no effect on us ( spin on that one).

If you want to be turning society upside down because you think the world is going to end, don't you think it would be wise just to be a little more certain about your predictions? Especially that given time those predictions have proven unreliable.
Your reference says the exact opposite of the point you're trying to make... did you even read it or just cut/paste the first thing that seemed to agree with your view on Google? It even talks about the validity of the early Venus hypothesis I referenced.

Why are you talking about physics? Physics hasn't changed since just after the big bang. Maybe the weight of the electron has changed by .00000000000001% in the last 13 billion years, but so what? We've discovered more about it, but that's what science is - continual incremental updating as more evidence comes. To put it in terms you already referenced, we once thought Newton's laws of gravity were perfect. Then Einstein came along and said, that works great, but there are deviations in this model, so how about general relativity? Newton's laws are still fine, but they need to be adjusted under different conditions. Basically, they'll work fine for getting you to the moon, but they can't explain Mercury's orbit. Einstein's mathematical model predicted what we'd see, then used observations to verify. The same is true with any scientific theory.

Global warming is certainly not perfect and there are definite things that need to be further refined, but for all intents and purposes: It is fact, just like evolution or gravity. Humans are causing it, just like life has changed the planet repeatedly over the last few billion years. If you disagree with almost every scientist and have some insight on data that has not been shown, perhaps you should do a climate science degree and get some papers published in reputable science journals. If you don't want to change your lifestyle, then don't. Drive a giant, inefficient car, eat 5kg of beef/lamb a day, and burn coal for electricity. Just don't try to pretend you know more than people spending their lives researching this.

Anyway, the world isn't ending for 5 billion years. I'm not worried about the world nor the fate of humanity. Perhaps we'll invent something that fixes at least the carbon problem - there is a lot of promising technology in this area.
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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby Blackened » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:26 pm

grigorib wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:14 pm
Where some see a problem others see an opportunity. I’d practically wonder what positive changes global warming cycle brings. It was global warming when Europe bloomed in Renaissance. It was global warming when Vikings travelled to Greenland by sea. There are going’s to be positive things. Why don’t we talk about those?
I agree. There is opportunity in everything. (it wasn't "global warming" during warmer periods in the age of humanity though and the Renaissance was cooling - my favourite illustration of this https://xkcd.com/1732/)

I would like to know the positive things about global warming, though. I can't think of any other than increased rate of storms for kiting :). Although, I'll probably be too old for the extreme stuff in 10-15 years, so maybe not..

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby grigorib » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:42 pm

Blackened wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:26 pm
... the Renaissance was cooling
I stand corrected.

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby edt » Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:27 pm

Blackened wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:13 pm
Anyway, the world isn't ending for 5 billion years. I'm not worried about the world nor the fate of humanity. Perhaps we'll invent something that fixes at least the carbon problem - there is a lot of promising technology in this area.
5 billion years is the time when the sun becomes a red giant and the earth ceases to exist but we have a few hundred million years before life ends on earth. Not much time I know right? What's the problem? For the last 4.5 billion years the sun has been getting brighter. It's now 30% brighter and continues to brighten as it burns up hydrogen the core builds up more pressure. In 1.6 billion years the sun's lumonosity will be over 200% and water will have boiled away, carbon will go into the atmosphere and we'll become Venus. This is without taking into account possible runaway greenhouse effects, so we know that the oceans will boil away before 1.6 billion years we just don't know when. Some figure 1 billion years other figure less. There is literally nothing we can do to save the earth other than real sci fi stuff like a giant space shield. Humans have only existed for 200,000 years, so I don't think we should worry too much about what happens in 200 million years, still, that 5 billion years figure is for the planet not for life on earth. I don't think humans as we know them will be around in another 200,000 years let alone 200 million so doesn't make much sense to worry about the distant future. Better idea to think in the "short term" on making the earth a beautiful place for our grandchildren to inhabit. I agree tech can be used to reduce earth's cooling i just worry about this attitude of I'll Be Gone and not giving a shit, so the idea of helping the earth is a good one no matter what, plastics, fish, or co2, I like it when people care.

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby grigorib » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:01 am

A bit depressing. Let’s kite

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby Blackened » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:49 am

edt wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:27 pm
Blackened wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:13 pm
Anyway, the world isn't ending for 5 billion years. I'm not worried about the world nor the fate of humanity. Perhaps we'll invent something that fixes at least the carbon problem - there is a lot of promising technology in this area.
5 billion years is the time when the sun becomes a red giant and the earth ceases to exist but we have a few hundred million years before life ends on earth. Not much time I know right? What's the problem? For the last 4.5 billion years the sun has been getting brighter. It's now 30% brighter and continues to brighten as it burns up hydrogen the core builds up more pressure. In 1.6 billion years the sun's lumonosity will be over 200% and water will have boiled away, carbon will go into the atmosphere and we'll become Venus. This is without taking into account possible runaway greenhouse effects, so we know that the oceans will boil away before 1.6 billion years we just don't know when. Some figure 1 billion years other figure less. There is literally nothing we can do to save the earth other than real sci fi stuff like a giant space shield. Humans have only existed for 200,000 years, so I don't think we should worry too much about what happens in 200 million years, still, that 5 billion years figure is for the planet not for life on earth. I don't think humans as we know them will be around in another 200,000 years let alone 200 million so doesn't make much sense to worry about the distant future. Better idea to think in the "short term" on making the earth a beautiful place for our grandchildren to inhabit. I agree tech can be used to reduce earth's cooling i just worry about this attitude of I'll Be Gone and not giving a shit, so the idea of helping the earth is a good one no matter what, plastics, fish, or co2, I like it when people care.
Very true. However, my faith in humanity is somewhat lacking. 36 million people die of hunger each year, while almost a billion go hungry - meanwhile in the western world we throw out an estimated 50% of all food produced and worry about our phones needing replacement after a year. People refuse to vaccinate their kids because there's poison in it, but happily eat salt. Despite thousands of years of knowing it isn't, there's somehow a resurgence of people believe the world is flat. Did they recently read Pratchet's Discworld series? TRY CLIMBING UP A HILL OR EVEN A STEPLADDER FOR f***'S SAKE.

Yeah, we're doomed.

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby Blackened » Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:50 am

grigorib wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:01 am
A bit depressing. Let’s kite
The smartest thing said in this entire thread.

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Re: Reasons why Toby should delete Climate Change Threads

Postby foilholio » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:12 am

Blackened wrote: However, my faith in humanity is somewhat lacking. 36 million people die of hunger each year, while almost a billion go hungry
How about we kill all the Dolphins so they can eat them and not go hungry or die? When they have more kids we can then kill another species for them and another after that? You don't seem to understand Evolution, it involves selection. That means somethings die and some don't, some reproduce and some don't. If you have no selection, i.e. death there is no evolution. Fortunately this is a scientific fact unlike stupid climate models. So whether you believe in it or not whether you try to circumvent it with immunizations or free hand outs and other silly tricks you ultimately will not bypass it, the death is just delayed and the selection is inevitable.
Blackened wrote: there's somehow a resurgence of people believe the world is flat.
There once was a consensus of experts that believed the earth was flat, sun went around the earth etc. What happened to the people that went against that consensus?
edt wrote:5 billion years is the time when the sun becomes a red giant
How certain are you on those billions of years? Given the few 1000's of Human civilized experience and knowledge?
edt wrote: It's now 30% brighter and continues to brighten as it burns up hydrogen the core builds up more pressure
So you too know whats at the center of the sun? Can to tell me the locations of all the gold nuggets on earth? Are you aware of variations in the theories for the make up of the earths core? We can walk on the surface and dig into the earth, what can we do with the sun? You know how fucking huge it is? I mean come on engage some logic edt! Be just a little skeptical of things. I tell you the only thing I am quite certain about is how little we actually know.
edt wrote:Humans have only existed for 200,000 years
It can be argued we have been around longer than that, the difference between hominids is not that great given some of the remaining dna from other hominids and suspected interbreeding.
edt wrote: There is literally nothing we can do to save the earth other than real sci fi stuff like a giant space shield
Likely not but we may discover new physics that could say allow us to relatively easily move a planet. Say space turns out quite easy to manipulate and so generating gravity turns out to defy current understanding for the energy requirements for doing so. There is quite a bit still in the physics area we are not certain about. All the big obvious things are well covered but the small still has plenty. Gravity and space are two things that if we could discover new things about them would possibly open scifi things up. For that the more people ,and the more smart the people we have looking at these areas the more likely something will be turned up, like looking for gold nuggets :-)
edt wrote: Better idea to think in the "short term" on making the earth a beautiful place for our grandchildren to inhabit. I agree tech can be used to reduce earth's cooling i just worry about this attitude of I'll Be Gone and not giving a shit, so the idea of helping the earth is a good one no matter what, plastics, fish, or co2, I like it when people care.
Yep I love living in a nice environment, plastics are actually a huge problem for that. Teflon is in nearly everyone's blood on the planet. https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/ne ... ood-stream. There is a logic disconnect from you. You recognize the impending doom for the planet ,and all on it from outside causes like the sun or maybe other things, you also recognize that life is not a single event but a continuation from generation to generation. Ultimately all life reaches it's end with this planet, except right now humans have the possibility to extend life beyond this planet. It may seem silly but even if we destroy most life on the planet,which I would not like at all, but even if we did and we some how manage to get us and some other life off and out into the galaxy for basically ever, then all the life that will result and continue will make any damage we did relatively meaningless. Again that is not to say I want us to trash the planet, I most definitely do not. The risk we face from trashing the planet is not the immediate degradation of the environment and are enjoyment but that we by doing that will say invoke a war or some other catastrophe that will set us on a path that sees us and life stuck to this one planet and eventually extinction.
Blackened wrote: I agree. There is opportunity in everything. (it wasn't "global warming" during warmer periods in the age of humanity though and the Renaissance was cooling - my favourite illustration of this https://xkcd.com/1732/)
The problem is fucking with the data is becoming all to common in what now may as well be called pseudosciences. https://realclimatescience.com/2018/12/ ... rm-period/

Are you also aware of the all the evidence that completely upsets the narrative for human civilization? https://theunredacted.com/the-great-sph ... the-sands/
Blackened wrote:Physics hasn't changed since just after the big bang.
What model is your time machine? The belief that rules of the universe have never changed is a theory in science that things are as they always have been. The big bang theory stems solely from observation of movement of the universe, it is moving from a point so it must have come from a point. It is as it has always been. What happened at the point? well lets just make up some religious sounding story about that should we? Ultimately these are all guesses at best, there is no way we have to confirm them, like for what is at the center of the sun or is the temperature of venus, until well we send something there.

I think it is great we have more educated guesses than well GOD WILLED IT, but they are still guesses. They are of actual little help for us, unless they stimulate more thought to find something applicable to now. They actually given discussions like this around climate seem to be a negative as they like religious belief or any dogma stifle thought and discussion. Science can ultimately only prove what it can test and create, let me know when they stay start making big bangs and resulting universes. Yes I am fucking aware of colliders and attempt to recreate the same "conditions" but they won't make a big band, black hole maybe but big bang highly unlikely. It is just approximation of approximation etc. Certainly interesting things will be found, and I am a huge supporter of science in that regard. I am just not a supporter of pseudoscience, social science, economics, bullllshit, etc. Everyone has a right to carry any line of thinking that they want, just don't fucking ask me to pay for crap like Gender studies and SLS rockets to nowhere.
Blackened wrote: Einstein's mathematical model predicted what we'd see, then used observations to verify.
https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/c ... -einstein/
Blackened wrote:The same is true with any scientific theory.
Correct. The same can be said for most aspects of human belief be it flat earth or god. I read this when I was a young child, by a truly great writer.

https://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience ... fWrong.htm

I think there could be a connection between the mind/consciousness and the quantum.
Blackened wrote: Global warming is certainly not perfect and there are definite things that need to be further refined
No argument to that.
Blackened wrote:Humans are causing it
Some of it, I would even accept a majority I would just need more proof.
Blackened wrote: If you disagree with almost every scientist and have some insight on data that has not been shown, perhaps you should do a climate science degree and get some papers published in reputable science journals.
I am not interested to that level. I think you will find Economics and Politics are the most dire problems we face in the immediate. We will be lucky to survive Trump. I struggle to think of solutions to them, I think principles of openness and freedom are the only thing that will work. It is sad to see the lack of leaks after Edward Snowden and now the torture of Julian Assange in the UK. Ability to leak information from real conspiracies that do evil are the only real defense we have against them. The increasing suppression of freedom and polluting of discourse with bots and propaganda is having a toll and will I think lead to the down fall of the current enlightenment. The Navy now has an army of bots engaged in political discourse on things like twitter. It's insane. Only defense is to largely disengage from the worst platforms and harden up on logic skills.
MaximumAC wrote:Pepe meme = instant disqualification
Always nice for antifa/sjw to self identify. You can hide behind masks but so easy to trigger!


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