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Ideal wing size for learning?

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Flyboy
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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby Flyboy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:24 pm

BWD wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:49 pm
Just move it back 3-4”
If that doesnt work move it another inch.
A big wing that self limits the speed at which you crash is the best thing to have for learning/teaching.
Smaller wings for learning only if you are into sadomasochism.
I moved the wing back a couple of inches from where I use it with my other wings. It is right at the back of the track ... but by using the inner holes (which Gong have thoughtfully provided) it could go back another inch or so. It is, of course, a matter of trial & error, but as I described the trying part is a real PIA because of the local launches available. What I don't get, is if this is a 1000cm wing, what do you do with a 1200 or 1500cm wing that some people are using?

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby bigtone667 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:45 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:24 pm
BWD wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:49 pm
Just move it back 3-4”
If that doesnt work move it another inch.
A big wing that self limits the speed at which you crash is the best thing to have for learning/teaching.
Smaller wings for learning only if you are into sadomasochism.
I moved the wing back a couple of inches from where I use it with my other wings. It is right at the back of the track ... but by using the inner holes (which Gong have thoughtfully provided) it could go back another inch or so. It is, of course, a matter of trial & error, but as I described the trying part is a real PIA because of the local launches available. What I don't get, is if this is a 1000cm wing, what do you do with a 1200 or 1500cm wing that some people are using?
I am using a 2000cm wing for kite foiling, SUP foiling and Winging ...... I don't have any dramas with it at all on small boards to 8ft SUPs. Provided there a no weird angles, you probably just need time.

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby Flyboy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:54 pm

bigtone667 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:45 pm


you probably just need time.
I'm sure you're right, but I'm a bit puzzled how to get my weight far enough forward (on a 3'6" DWC).

However ... the initial question is: if you were teaching someone from scratch these days, what size wing would you want to start them on?

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby bigtone667 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:01 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:54 pm
bigtone667 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:45 pm


you probably just need time.
I'm sure you're right, but I'm a bit puzzled how to get my weight far enough forward (on a 3'6" DWC).

However ... the initial question is: if you were teaching someone from scratch these days, what size wing would you want to start them on?
I personally would start them on a big slow surf wing. For a smaller individual, something in 1000cm range or for a larger individual something in the 1500 range...... they a super steady. Just my opinion.

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby BWD » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:13 pm

Unless I missed something, people have avoided the “S” word so far, but if you aren’t strapless, be strapless.

Even if you leave straps on, put your back foot forward, so it is ahead of the mast. Hopefully you can put it so far forward that the foil will not rise. Then inch it back to figure out where your center needs to be for controlled riding....
If you find it a pain to start without straps, stop whining and keep trying. It is another new skill but you should be able to get it in an hour

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby Flyboy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:25 pm

BWD wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:13 pm
Unless I missed something
What you have missed is that I am talking about teaching someone else from scratch. Having gone through the initial process of learning (on a smaller wing), I'm familiar with the "keep trying". I have no doubt that I'll adjust to the bigger wing. The question I'm asking is is that the best place to start for a complete beginner given the present state of foiling?
Last edited by Flyboy on Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby stevez » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:50 pm

I reckon the easiest would be the middle ground - around 1000cm2, a foil with a low takeoff speed, but not aggressive lift, reasonably thin profile.
Largish (~135cm) but low volume board, strapless or single front hook.
My brother learnt a few months ago on a Cabrinha Hirise Lift (900cm2) and had a much easier time of it than I did.

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby Flyboy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:55 am

stevez wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:50 pm
I reckon the easiest would be the middle ground - around 1000cm2, a foil with a low takeoff speed, but not aggressive lift, reasonably thin profile.
That was my conclusion, which is why I bought the Gong foil with a 1000cm wing. I was a bit taken aback with how aggressively it pops up compared to the 700cm wings I have used up to now. If that's the consensus though, that's the foil I'll take with me.

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:40 am

"Ideal wing size for learning?"

A really good question, as it is not that simple.

A small wing does not pop up easily, when you push too much, which you WILL do as a beginner, so here the smaller wings are "safer" in order to remain on the surface so to speak, and learn the initial basics and control/handling of a hydrofoil in the water, which is essential and different to all other board types.

Once you got some control though, it is just the opposite, you can get up foiling at a slower speed on a bigger wing, and easy to keep it foiling even with mistakes.

In between, which is a long part of the learning period, one can not say which works the best IMO.

Thus no full consensus about what size to use, and many different answers.


If an average weight, I think wings in the size 8-900 cm2 will be the easiest, and also work the best all around later, by todays standards 2019-2020.

If she is really light, the 700 Carver wing should be spot on for learning I think.

If an average weight or more, the 1000 cm2 would be the choice of these two sizes IMO.



Regarding wing size in general as you asked:
Flyboy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:24 pm
Snip.
What I don't get, is if this is a 1000cm wing, what do you do with a 1200 or 1500cm wing that some people are using?

Well, I got 7 wings from 520 cm2 up to 1200 cm2 high and low AR, I am 77 kg.
The thing is, the bigger ones does not need more front foot pressure, nor pop up by themself.
IF you got one that does, it is a bad trim from the manufacturer - they should all be alike in terms of foot stance and trim, my wings are when only changing wings, so it is possible.

It is a misconception coming from the beginners who will experience this, no doubt, and maybe from badly trimmed hydrofoils also :wink:

The difference is, that when experienced, you can ride with a lot smaller kite on the bigger wings, and they dont pop out even when powered or bigger kites, simply because you have learned to foil, as the trim is the same (or you have to get the trim right or go strapless if it is not spot on)

When you are new, your muscle memory is rubbish, non existent in fact, and your brain tries to compensate, but too slow.
Meaning you will make kangaroo riding at first, and this gets a lot worse with bigger wings and powered like when learning :o

This is the reason it feels like it pops out of the water, which is does not, YOU pop it out of the water.

You will probably have these unintended erratic pitch control errors the first year when starting to foil.

When you have learned, you can ride a 2000 cm2 wing smoothly without standing further forward also at somewhat higher speeds, it wont pop out :rollgrin:

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Re: Ideal wing size for learning?

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:57 am

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:24 pm
I moved the wing back a couple of inches from where I use it with my other wings. It is right at the back of the track ... but by using the inner holes (which Gong have thoughtfully provided) it could go back another inch or so. It is, of course, a matter of trial & error, but as I described the trying part is a real PIA because of the local launches available. What I don't get, is if this is a 1000cm wing, what do you do with a 1200 or 1500cm wing that some people are using?
Depends on the wing design and your technique.

Boards feel “right” with my feet in certain places and I move the mast to suit that feeling.

But my preferred stance is with the back foot behind the mast and front foot forward enough to get even pressure on both feet. Riding strapless so I move both get around a lot (I guess) for comfort while beating upwind, trimming for wind conditions or speed, or carving around.

Guys I see standing with both feet in front of the mast invariably have very narrow stances. Even the big heavy fellas.

Of course a bigger wing is going to lift more but if the whole foil is nicely trimmed, balance point should not be a whole rail length’s difference... I’d bet that’ll lead to handling issues somewhere in the speed envelope...

Re. the original question: no more than 1,000cm2 relative to body weight. I was going to add “with a higher AR wing” but they tend to be so roll stable that until you’re used to handling them, they might feel like the board is too solid to control with smash adjustment of weight. Dunno.

The original Double Agent was a good foil to learn on — big, stable, limited speed and not aggressive lift. But you’d grow out of it fast.


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