Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Duotone Click vs Trust bar

Forum for kitesurfers
nothing2seehere
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 629
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:25 pm
Kiting since: 2012
Local Beach: Calshot, Hayling, Meon - Southcoast UK
Gear: Ocean Rodeo Flite, Ocean rodeo jester, Airush Ultra and Union, shinn boards
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar...

Postby nothing2seehere » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:12 pm

vela99 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:06 am
Hi

I own both and I am a bit more sceptical with the Click Bar than most users. There are advantages and disadvantages for both and in my mind the high price for the Click Bar is not justifies at all. The only reason I have one is that I got it for 300 Euro semi new (looked completely unused).

Quad Bar
Advantages: width adjustable, very quick trimming.
Disadvantages: trim line dangling around, poor velcro to fix the end of trim line, plastic lashes to clip the ends fragile.

Click Bar
Advantages: clean (not sure why this is so important...no danglin lines maybe?)
Disadvantages: to trim for more power is actually slower. No width adjustment (for me a big disadvantage).
I have the two above and a shift bar.

Currently prefer the click bar to the shift bar because its narrower (easier with gloves for cold weather) and a lot easier to adjust.
I'm not a fan of the rectangular profile centre lines. It sticks too much in situations where the centre line tension is low (light winds/backstall/etc) when trying to sheet out. Prefer just rope.
The new chicken loop of the shift bar is nice and slightly easier to reassemble.

For me its the little things that make the click bar worth while.
- The small adjustments. Sure you can micro adjust on a pulley in theory but in practice you would end up pulling three inches in, then releasing 2 1/2inchs, then pulling 2 inches in...... and so forth. Putting 8 levels of adjustment in just simplifies it enough to work better somehow.
- Adjustment without tension on the lines. Go out on a strong wind day and need full trim to land it - yet now its a light wind day. No problems just twist whilst setting up.
They are all nice things to have but not essential in any way.

To me its the electric windows in cars thing. Sure there's more to potentially go wrong and you don't need them but once you have electric windows you don't really want to go back.

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Style: Online kiteboard commenting, Fortnite.
Gear: World Sailing kite KOOKs. By kiters for kiters. #kitekooks
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar...

Postby longwhitecloud » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:25 pm


To me its the electric windows in cars thing. Sure there's more to potentially go wrong and you don't need them but once you have electric windows you don't really want to go back.
Not really, your electric windows are independent from your car steering wheel and won't cause steering problems if it fails in any way. The mechanism in the click bar could.

Anyone can buy and ride what they want, I think click bars are bad engineering.

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1264
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 85 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar...

Postby purdyd » Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:51 pm

longwhitecloud wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:25 pm

To me its the electric windows in cars thing. Sure there's more to potentially go wrong and you don't need them but once you have electric windows you don't really want to go back.
Not really, your electric windows are independent from your car steering wheel and won't cause steering problems if it fails in any way. The mechanism in the click bar could.

Anyone can buy and ride what they want, I think click bars are bad engineering.
I think what you are failing to consider for the rear line adjustment systems is that the load on the rear lines is significantly less than on the front lines.

What is solid from an engineering standpoint is that adjustment mechanism is under a lot less peak and continuos loading.

And from a design stand point, rear line adjustment systems solve several issues.

1. Long throw while keeping the adjustment in reach
2. Reducing force to adjust
3. Eliminating flopping lines

The click or shift functions provide a repeatable positioning of the line lengths and I do find that to be a performance enhancement.

There have been a number of attempts to solve items 1 through 3 above with pulleys, Velcro, bungees , cleats, below the bar adjustment, etc.

These parts have to selected to account for the increased loading in front line adjustment systems.

Consider for instance the Cabrinha overdrive recoil bar which is a complex attempt at front line adjustment. Not particularly cheap either.

At first blush the click bar rear line adjustment is quite simple. Almost too simple but again, remember there is light loading on the rear lines.

I was skeptical of the left rear line passing over two fixes metal pins and the winding mechanism

Ultimately the proof is in how it functions in real life. After two years I’d say the winding mechanism is very reliable and robust and the wear on the line passing over the pins is not an issue. Although I might have extended the tubing in the middle of the bar that the line travel through over those pins.

My biggest issue with the click bar has been the flying lines and the red depower rope passing through the pu wearing quickly.

Again, I don’t think you have taken into account how little loading there is on the rear lines or the fact that the adjustment mechanism has proven to be quite reliable in real world use.

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 96 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar...

Postby Matteo V » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:29 pm

purdyd wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:51 pm
Again, I don’t think you have taken into account how little loading there is on the rear lines or the fact that the adjustment mechanism has proven to be quite reliable in real world use.
Yes, there is very minimum tension in the rear lines. Ozone messed around with getting rid of the highly loaded front line adjustment on kites as far back as '09-'10. This system was very simple with just a webbing adjuster on each steering line side. Not ideal for adjustment while flying as it would unevenly adjust the back lines, but it worked for the "Access" series because of how stable they were. It also helped that the kite did not really need to be adjusted (trimmed) throughout it's range (for me anyway, or maybe I just learned to deal without adjusting).

Again your point is very much dead on!

But.................Having a single highly loaded cleat on the front lines vs a complicated internal system to adjust each back line evenly? For the same price - yeah that would work. But how much more money is it worth? I'd say trading a simple high load cleat for backline adjustment is worth an extra $25 to me.

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1264
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 85 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar...

Postby purdyd » Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:09 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:29 pm

But.................Having a single highly loaded cleat on the front lines vs a complicated internal system to adjust each back line evenly? For the same price - yeah that would work. But how much more money is it worth? I'd say trading a simple high load cleat for backline adjustment is worth an extra $25 to me.
I think you understate the complexity of the. Simple high load cleats, which have pull straps, pulleys, bungees in depower lines etc.

And there are bars, core, more expensive than the click bar. But at least you get top rated kite lines .

And you are right, in regards to the original question, is the click bar worth the price difference from the trust bar is in the end an opinion and value judgement.

For me, getting rid of thE dangling stuff above the bar and having a quick and repeatable adjustment was worth it. Quick on the fly adjustment is just a bonus.

I sold my trust bar.

The trust bar has no bungee in the depower line so when you depower, it flops around. The cleat was fussier than I was used to making it hard to precisely adjust. Cleats that hold the line solid tend to be difficult to adjust in light winds because there isn’t enough pull on the kite.cleats in general have some line slip as the line loads up.

I would not have guessed that to be the case but after you use the click bar for awhile, it is jarring to go back to the trust bar.

Other people will have different values on features and that is perfectly understandable.

In my monetary value system, the bar is worth the price difference in spite of its shortcomings.

I think an opinion would carry more weight if the person offering that opinion actually had used the products.

Perhaps if you tried the bar you might think it worth $50 more. :D :D

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Style: Online kiteboard commenting, Fortnite.
Gear: World Sailing kite KOOKs. By kiters for kiters. #kitekooks
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar

Postby longwhitecloud » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:39 pm

Overall yes, but there is no difference between the max line tension in front and back lines when a kite has the depower at max and kite is for example in a turn/loop. I have snapped plenty of steering lines over the years. That is what matters.

The best example of this is when a kite loops and the rider/ board is partly submerged.

Does anyone use a click bar in Kota?.. in super high winds.. even team riders?

I would think not using one would be part of sensible risk management much like some top wakestyle riders now opting for footstraps, and the use of thicker higher tensile lines.

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1264
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 85 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar

Postby purdyd » Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:32 am

longwhitecloud wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:39 pm
Overall yes, but there is no difference between the max line tension in front and back lines when a kite has the depower at max and kite is for example in a turn/loop. I have snapped plenty of steering lines over the years. That is what matters.

The best example of this is when a kite loops and the rider/ board is partly submerged.

Does anyone use a click bar in Kota?.. in super high winds.. even team riders?

I would think not using one would be part of sensible risk management much like some top wakestyle riders now opting for footstraps, and the use of thicker higher tensile lines.
I don’t see how a kite bar can be in max depower and have tension on the rear lines.

I don’t know why you snap rear lines all the time,

As far as I can tell, the click bar was used and is used in big air by team riders. Also the three duotone gka world champions use the click bar in competitions,

I suspect that is because it does work and is reliable and offers a performance advantage.
084E8FA2-CE54-4F66-AE4B-DD5814638BD4.jpeg

720586F2-32DB-4739-B8A0-08AECFA0F903.png
Attachments
1415B15B-083F-44F3-89A4-3DA14B78D80D.png

Matteo V
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm
Kiting since: 2008
Local Beach: US, Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Utah/Oregon Coast
Favorite Beaches: Ft. Stevens, North coast of Oregon
Style: Just like school in summertime
Gear: Delta Kites and LF Kitefish QuadMod
Snowboard (Cambered and Rockered)
Foil kites on the snow
Brand Affiliation: NONE F--- the corporate world
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 96 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar

Postby Matteo V » Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:15 am

purdyd wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:32 am

(Team riders use it)
I suspect that is because it does work and is reliable and offers a performance advantage.
And kind of required to as part of being a team rider?

Plus, part of their sponsorship is pimping/testing the sponsors gear?

Not to mention all of their gear is pretty much brand spanking new!


So definitely not a good example of the average or high level consumer out there.

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Style: Online kiteboard commenting, Fortnite.
Gear: World Sailing kite KOOKs. By kiters for kiters. #kitekooks
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 73 times

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar

Postby longwhitecloud » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:56 am

None of them are pics of kota, and like said.. part of the contract for sure. Kota though.. high winds, huge risk for very small reward$.. no one is going ride kota forced to use a click bar if they don't want to as part of their contract.. common sense.

I don't snap rear lines all the time, but they do break occasionally, that is just reality.. usually they break with the front lines at the same time.

20 years of high wind kiting has taught me a lot, don't use kites with brides with possibility of wrapping around kite tips (riders have been killed with this stuck in death loop)

Use good long rigid leader lines to prevent bar half hitches that may result in the same problem.

Don't use a chicken loop that can easily jam in your spreader bar.

Use a fully flagging leash.

Keep things simple, minimise unecessary mechanical components.

One thing the click bar could do is keep a depower out the way of line potential line tangles (rare but possible) ; however, I'll take the simple option with less mechanical components and minimal maintenance.. a traditional depower with minimal catch points.

Do-it
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1302
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:38 pm
Kiting since: 2012
Gear: North and Ocean Rodeo
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 0

Re: Duotone Click vs Trust bar

Postby Do-it » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:57 am

Lines suck either way. Throughout the years I’ve noticed north lines deteriorate pretty quickly. It sucks, because their kites are great and last a very long time. Honestly, I would not buy duatone kites again,due to the shitty lines. Mucho sucko


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], bremorf, Google [Bot], SLiiCK and 11 guests