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The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

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Horst Sergio
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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby Horst Sergio » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:24 pm

Goavegas wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:05 pm
Now i don't want to be picky but Most of Germany electricity is produced by burning coal,does this make an electric car cleaner ?
It is not a total easy calculation for sure, but as I remember even when you calculate actual German electricity mix you are allready better than Diesel, but there are for sure sources saying the opposite, but it is always good to have a check which one is more reliable. If you want I can try to find a good one actually not to much into it.

Just in short about German electricity mix:
https://www.solarify.eu/2020/01/04/740- ... 6-prozent/
In 2019 46% of the electricity was produced by all ecological sources (water, wind, solar, biomass) which is first time more than by coal and so
there was also a good success to lower Germans CO2 output by now 35% for 2019 compared to 1990, but we are going to miss the 2020 goal for 40% for sure. :(
And also the named numbers haven't been success of German government but of the European CO2 Certification system where a ton actually costs around 25 € which is still about 7 times to low compared to the calculated damages CO2 causes but already high enough to push out coal just by its price. Funny story to add: not just in Australia but even in Europe Coal mines start to build PV plants for their electricity demands as the only solution to produce cheaper ... using their own by coal produced electricity just starts to be to expensive for them ... :D Now you can choose if you prefer to cry or to laugh, I am not sure myself. :lol: :cry:

If you like to see numbers your self, this is an interactiv tool which you can deeply see into all values from the past, from one of Germans most trustable institute:
https://www.energy-charts.de/power.htm

But for sure you are cleaner when you mainly can use your local PV plant on your roof to charge your car, or even better the PV plant integrated into your cars roof. :wink:

The elongated https://sonomotors.com campaign is actually at its 38th of 50 days at 44 Mio of 50 Mio € to be collected, so doesn't sound bad at the moment.

And if not seen yet, if go into higher risk when making a reservation and not just spending 500 but round about 9000 € you will become part of the ownership of sonomotors or at least get profit share ... the day they start to make profit ... well could take a few more years, so don't ask every day for your profit :wink:

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby Kamikuza » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:47 am

Shouldn't have shut down the nuclear power stations...

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby grtlakes » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am

I did some research about the most cost effective car a few years ago. I drive 30k a year. I compared mileage, initial cost, expected maintenance, resell value and insurance.

I came up with the latest(not plug-in) Prius. Not glamorous (not a factor for me) but damn good choice. I save 1000$ a yr compared to operating a civic or similar size car. Initial cost only a little more.
According to direct conversations with cabbies in western Canada they have multiple company cars still going strong after 1000000kms. One car was purchased by an employee as a family car when the cab company retired it. It had 1.3 million kms.

Now, as far as a kiting car.
Great range, internal hatchback space for 2 kiters, multiple kites, TTs, foil boards etc.
Roof tack option also.

I don’t think electric only vehicles are quite there yet. Overpriced, overhyped and over relying on the cool factor.

That said I have reserved a cybertruck.

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby BWD » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:25 am

Now you can choose if you prefer to cry or to laugh, I am not sure myself.
Indeed, schadenfreude just doesn’t feel right when laughing at idiots being victimized by corrupt technocrats.

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby Horst Sergio » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:02 pm

grtlakes wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am
I came up with the latest(not plug-in) Prius.
Sounds good. :thumb: Didn't know the Prius is so good in quality but now also seen it in some further sources.
Do you know if the Prius+ (Van like) exists in the Plug-In version? As I have seen till now unfortunately not.

A firend has done a similar calculation 5 years ago and landed for cheapest high class car on a Model S. But it was a time when Tesla lowered the prices to the minimum and we had Diesel prices up to 1,50 € in Germany.
Kamikuza wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:47 am
Shouldn't have shut down the nuclear power stations...
Ok even if this goes beyond mobility:
By studies I was always interested in nuclear physics and power. Even had the idea to do my diploma thesis about it but more towards fusion then fission, as already 15 years ago it was clear to me that there is no future for fission. Happily I also understand that also fusion does not have a reachable future within one mans live time and so happily gone into solar and wind power. To me there are two reasons why I am sure nuclear power is on its end and one reason why some countries, still build some plants:

1. When I was visiting a power plant during my studies the tour guide was very happy to show Germans engineers safety concept with not just, 1, 2 or 3 but 4 emergency backup generator ... so great redundancy, on the paper. But what the economists made out of it, they twisted it around and put all 4 generators in one single building (sure with 4 rooms) ... What happend about 8 years later in Fukushima now is history. They had the same economicaly optimised backup concepts, it is very interesting to read now when the incident can be described more in detail to understand how much control those engineers had during the situation. They haven't even been cabable to control Unit 4 which hasn't been active during the earthquake!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima ... r_disaster

Being myself a German engineer who today could work in a nuclear plant in another live. I would never bet associates in my country would have act better then those in Japan.

2. Nuclear power is actually by far the most expensive energy sources at least if you calculate disposal of waste and the ensurance for risks. In fact the last two in Germany will be payed not by electricity costs or plant owners but by taxes of the next generation. And the price for plants build with todays safety standards are rising, rising, rising ...

3. There is just one reason why countries like England, France, Iran, etc. actually build new power plants for insane prices. It is about nuclear weapons. :(

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby grtlakes » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:15 pm

Obviously society is experimenting with different ideas and “new” technologies. I have found quite often the best option available is conservation as opposed to innovation.

For example a house with south facing triple pane windows and 2x6 stud/insulation will cost much less to heat with an airtight wood stove than an older drafty house with the most efficient heat pump on the market.

New isn’t always better.

That said when you combine conservation with innovation look out. Problem is cost gets in the way and something has to give.

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby Peert » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:57 am

https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/

+++
1. 20 or 30 km solar charge per day equals 6.000 free km's year
2. Very economical car, price tag is relatively low. Maintenance philosophy is fair. TCO is very low...
3. Smallest footprint.
4. Sufficient space for some gear.

- - -
1. Not on the market yet.
2. Range is limited to 200 km's so only useable for some people as first car...
3. Not the most sexy car (For me no issue at all since I don't need a car to attract women ;-)

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:46 pm

Horst Sergio wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:02 pm
grtlakes wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am
I came up with the latest(not plug-in) Prius.
Sounds good. :thumb: Didn't know the Prius is so good in quality but now also seen it in some further sources.
Do you know if the Prius+ (Van like) exists in the Plug-In version? As I have seen till now unfortunately not.

A firend has done a similar calculation 5 years ago and landed for cheapest high class car on a Model S. But it was a time when Tesla lowered the prices to the minimum and we had Diesel prices up to 1,50 € in Germany.
Kamikuza wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:47 am
Shouldn't have shut down the nuclear power stations...
Ok even if this goes beyond mobility:
By studies I was always interested in nuclear physics and power. Even had the idea to do my diploma thesis about it but more towards fusion then fission, as already 15 years ago it was clear to me that there is no future for fission. Happily I also understand that also fusion does not have a reachable future within one mans live time and so happily gone into solar and wind power. To me there are two reasons why I am sure nuclear power is on its end and one reason why some countries, still build some plants:

1. When I was visiting a power plant during my studies the tour guide was very happy to show Germans engineers safety concept with not just, 1, 2 or 3 but 4 emergency backup generator ... so great redundancy, on the paper. But what the economists made out of it, they twisted it around and put all 4 generators in one single building (sure with 4 rooms) ... What happend about 8 years later in Fukushima now is history. They had the same economicaly optimised backup concepts, it is very interesting to read now when the incident can be described more in detail to understand how much control those engineers had during the situation. They haven't even been cabable to control Unit 4 which hasn't been active during the earthquake!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima ... r_disaster

Being myself a German engineer who today could work in a nuclear plant in another live. I would never bet associates in my country would have act better then those in Japan.

2. Nuclear power is actually by far the most expensive energy sources at least if you calculate disposal of waste and the ensurance for risks. In fact the last two in Germany will be payed not by electricity costs or plant owners but by taxes of the next generation. And the price for plants build with todays safety standards are rising, rising, rising ...

3. There is just one reason why countries like England, France, Iran, etc. actually build new power plants for insane prices. It is about nuclear weapons. :(
What data are you using to determine that nuclear is "by far the most expensive" energy source? The studies I've looked at put the life-cycle cost of nuclear very near the bottom, although I haven't noticed if that includes disposal; I assume "life cycle" would include it.

Fukushima failed because the tsunami swamped the sea wall protecting the generator shed, or something to that effect -- pretty sure that's in the wikipedia link. It was a combination of worst case scenarios, and while this was predicted by a review, the odds were deemed so long as to be unrealistic. Oops.

Regardless, my comment was regarding CO2 emissions for operational power stations that had been shut down.

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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby drsurf » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:34 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:46 pm
Horst Sergio wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:02 pm
grtlakes wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am
I came up with the latest(not plug-in) Prius.
Sounds good. :thumb: Didn't know the Prius is so good in quality but now also seen it in some further sources.
Do you know if the Prius+ (Van like) exists in the Plug-In version? As I have seen till now unfortunately not.

A firend has done a similar calculation 5 years ago and landed for cheapest high class car on a Model S. But it was a time when Tesla lowered the prices to the minimum and we had Diesel prices up to 1,50 € in Germany.
Kamikuza wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:47 am
Shouldn't have shut down the nuclear power stations...
Ok even if this goes beyond mobility:
By studies I was always interested in nuclear physics and power. Even had the idea to do my diploma thesis about it but more towards fusion then fission, as already 15 years ago it was clear to me that there is no future for fission. Happily I also understand that also fusion does not have a reachable future within one mans live time and so happily gone into solar and wind power. To me there are two reasons why I am sure nuclear power is on its end and one reason why some countries, still build some plants:

1. When I was visiting a power plant during my studies the tour guide was very happy to show Germans engineers safety concept with not just, 1, 2 or 3 but 4 emergency backup generator ... so great redundancy, on the paper. But what the economists made out of it, they twisted it around and put all 4 generators in one single building (sure with 4 rooms) ... What happend about 8 years later in Fukushima now is history. They had the same economicaly optimised backup concepts, it is very interesting to read now when the incident can be described more in detail to understand how much control those engineers had during the situation. They haven't even been cabable to control Unit 4 which hasn't been active during the earthquake!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima ... r_disaster

Being myself a German engineer who today could work in a nuclear plant in another live. I would never bet associates in my country would have act better then those in Japan.

2. Nuclear power is actually by far the most expensive energy sources at least if you calculate disposal of waste and the ensurance for risks. In fact the last two in Germany will be payed not by electricity costs or plant owners but by taxes of the next generation. And the price for plants build with todays safety standards are rising, rising, rising ...

3. There is just one reason why countries like England, France, Iran, etc. actually build new power plants for insane prices. It is about nuclear weapons. :(
What data are you using to determine that nuclear is "by far the most expensive" energy source? The studies I've looked at put the life-cycle cost of nuclear very near the bottom, although I haven't noticed if that includes disposal; I assume "life cycle" would include it.

Fukushima failed because the tsunami swamped the sea wall protecting the generator shed, or something to that effect -- pretty sure that's in the wikipedia link. It was a combination of worst case scenarios, and while this was predicted by a review, the odds were deemed so long as to be unrealistic. Oops.

Regardless, my comment was regarding CO2 emissions for operational power stations that had been shut down.
The cost of decommissioning a Nuclear Power Plant is extremely high, see https://www.energydigital.com/utilities ... ower-plant
The one at San Onofre in Southern California is expected to cost $4.4 Billion (US dollars) to decommission and take 20 years :o
This does not necessarily include disposal costs which are likely to be astronomical as well.
Given the time and the cost, it would appear that the decommissioning process may incur a substantial amount of CO2 production, negating the savings of CO2 production by the plant while it was operating.

As Horst has stated, only countries interested in nuclear weaponry seem to be prepared to fund the nuclear power industry from Government resources, (read taxes).

I'm also keen to have an electric surf car. Given it's a 10 minute trip for me to get to the local kite beach a car like the Sion would be fantastic. It could do the trip every day using only the power it generated from its own solar panels. For longer trips I do have solar PV on my house roof :D
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Re: The perfect Surfer - Electric - Car ?

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:51 pm

@Kamikuza
Just two examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_p ... PR_design)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_P ... er_station
"EDF has negotiated a guaranteed fixed price – a "strike price"– for electricity from Hinkley Point C of £92.50/MWh (in 2012 prices),[23][72] which will be adjusted (linked to inflation) during the construction period and over the subsequent 35 years tariff period. ...
A 2014 Agora Energiewende study found that new wind and solar generation is up to 50% cheaper than new nuclear, based on what they described as a conservative comparison of current feed-in tariffs in Germany with the agreed strike price for Hinkley Point C. The study does not actually compare UK strike prices..."
£92.50/MWh is round about 11 cent / kWh (nuclear).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pow ... 18_ISE.png
Prices for big "PV utility" Power plants actually in the not too sunny Germany has come down to 4 € cent / kWh (solar) That's why one of Germans big 4 electricity producers called "EnBW" who ownes nuclear and coal plants, now in 2020 builds Germans first PV power plant without any public support, just on base of a PPA, as solar power is the cheapest energy source, not in sunny Africa but in grey Germany!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_purchase_agreement

@Peert and drsurf:
completely agree

Today they didn't allowed me to go till the surf spot yet :wink: , but to drive the Sion a bit around in the corner of Munic where sonomotors has his office.
And a Peak4, Queen Lily and me tested the compfort of the very big trunk :D
We all fit easily in the actuall prototyp which is 10 cm shorter than the next close to serial version, which should be ready mid of 2020.
Kitejunkie test Sonomotors Sion.jpg
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