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jkrug wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:34 pm

every video i've seen is for the 10m Roam. Seems to me this isn't where most of the interest would be, since most 10m's are plenty good now. i certainly wouldn't pay double for something i'm already happy with. why no video's on 12m's (guess it would have to be the Flite)? most 12m's are horrible, so this is where improvements could be seen most easily.

I'll never buy a kite bigger than 10m again. No matter how good they get.

Big kites are awesome. You should try a 22m.

bragnouff wrote: But L/D is not really a metric that applies to actual kitesurfing.

I am sorry what did you just say?

bragnouff wrote:Some user friendliness is part of the brief.

Ok sure but that is not performance. Conflating the 2 is just something marketing people would do. What you are saying is you need ease of handling in addition to high performance or sometimes in spite of it. Perfect example is the Peak4, low performance but very easy to fly. Sure you could call other aspects performance but it just blurs what kites do what. Marketing guys like that so they can confuse people into thinking kites or gear do stuff they can't or compare when then don't.

I will forgive you your first statement.

bragnouff wrote: Hence why it's hard to define "performance" in kitesurfing

Easy it's not. Just say it's L/D, which is very applicable to kiting, and then call the rest handling or what they are like drift, relaunch etc. L/D covers jumping, upwind, downwind, range( partially), racing. We are arguing the meaning of a word. When people think high performance car the do not think nice family car that has good function for the kids. When I think high performance kite, I do not think slow beginner kite, I think high AR race kite which is \/\/\/\/\/

bragnouff wrote: the fastest, liftiest kite, but if it's a bitch to fly, overshoots, creates insane spikes of power, and some dead zones when turning, and requires constant attention from rider

I.e. a high performance kite.

bragnouff wrote: On top of that, it's only valid in a given context. Boosting kite, wave kite, freestyle,... All those disciplines have very different concepts of performance.

Sure they have different aspects of performance but they can also be low performance or high performace as regard to L/D. A boosting kite should be a high performance kite. You could say a wave kite or like the peak 4 it is a excellent wave kite, and yes it has high performance as a wave kite but it is not high performance and so not a high performance kite.

People like to think that their kite is the "highest" performance, the "best". The marketing team/ reseller has sold them on it. Unless it is one of the race kites like Sonic VMG this is not true though. They may however have the best or very good kite for some aspect of the sport, except racing or boosting. You can have a kite that is very good at many things but is not the best at anyone.

And before you bring in pros, realize they do not represent what kites are good or good at. A pro can ride well on most anything, is best on the gear they only use because of familiarity and are forced by agreement to only use or to be seen only using the brand that supports them. This is totally contrary to how pros are used and intended to look. The marketing people and brands want you to think because of a pro their gear is better or the best. This in actuality is totally not true and any one that disagrees is delusional and or trying to sell that lie.

foilholio wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:01 am

bragnouff wrote: But L/D is not really a metric that applies to actual kitesurfing.

I am sorry what did you just say?

bragnouff wrote:Some user friendliness is part of the brief.

Ok sure but that is not performance. Conflating the 2 is just something marketing people would do. What you are saying is you need ease of handling in addition to high performance or sometimes in spite of it. Perfect example is the Peak4, low performance but very easy to fly. Sure you could call other aspects performance but it just blurs what kites do what. Marketing guys like that so they can confuse people into thinking kites or gear do stuff they can't or compare when then don't.

I will forgive you your first statement.

Well, of course L/D is a major part of the design of a kite, I never said it could be ignored! Maybe it's a question of semantics, but I stand by my statement that if you only chase the L/D metrics to define "performance", you'll end up with something no one wants for actual riding. Sometimes compromising the L/D to obtain more resilience to turbulent winds, a decent ability to turn and function in wider wind ranges and at various angles, will see an increase in performance.

I'm sure you understood what I tried to convey, but thanks for your forgiveness, nonetheless!

I'll never buy a kite bigger than 10m again. No matter how good they get.


You must live in Capetown or ride a foil. The reality is most people need a 12m. A 12 probably doubles the amount of days i can ride in the summer. Sure a 10m is more fun, but a 12m Reo is a lot of fun in the waves. You don't know what your missing.

I Know a little about what you think I’m missing.

Daversj wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:06 am

I'll never buy a kite bigger than 10m again. No matter how good they get.


You must live in Capetown or ride a foil. The reality is most people need a 12m. A 12 probably doubles the amount of days i can ride in the summer. Sure a 10m is more fun, but a 12m Reo is a lot of fun in the waves. You don't know what your missing.

12m in the waves... I think we have all been there and no exactly what we are not missing.

@Foilholio @bragnouff Let's put the discussion aside and assume now that high performance is really about L/D; I still do not understand why the Roam would be the "best performing kite" (because this is what Surferkitenew claimed). L/D is proportional to AR and the roam for sure has not an exceptional high AR.

windmaker wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:29 am

Daversj wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:06 am

I'll never buy a kite bigger than 10m again. No matter how good they get.


You must live in Capetown or ride a foil. The reality is most people need a 12m. A 12 probably doubles the amount of days i can ride in the summer. Sure a 10m is more fun, but a 12m Reo is a lot of fun in the waves. You don't know what your missing.

12m in the waves... I think we have all been there and no exactly what we are not missing.

Riding One Eye with a 12m Reo......pretty sure it was an epic day and had lots of fun on those waves, if my memory is correct.
You have to adjust your style and cant scream toward you kite, but still way better than foiling on a 10m.

A 12m is not even the beginning. Have you ridden a kite that can handle slack lines in 7 knots? Surfing is about the only enjoyable thing you can do in such wind and less. An ultralight foil kite works great riding waves down to about 4knots. You can even do a trick to ride the wave say over 8knots or more downwind in 4knots wind. The wind window switches in reverse.

cor wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:03 pm

@Foilholio @bragnouff Let's put the discussion aside and assume now that high performance is really about L/D; I still do not understand why the Roam would be the "best performing kite" (because this is what Surferkitenew claimed). L/D is proportional to AR and the roam for sure has not an exceptional high AR.

Well lighter kites need less lift and so have less drag so L/D is improved. They are quicker on the up stroke and through turns so can make more power. More speed has better L/D for higher lift. Then as well they fly better in less wind and hang better surfing with slack lines.

The Roam looks to have a thin LE, so that would be some of the dramatic weight savings and also give more speed. Some of the best performing kites ever just had thin carbon tubes.

Daversj wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:59 pm

Riding One Eye with a 12m Reo......pretty sure it was an epic day and had lots of fun on those waves, if my memory is correct.
You have to adjust your style and cant scream toward you kite, but still way better than foiling on a 10m.

Great shot. No doubt that would be an absolute highlight reel day, but its more common than unicorns in these parts. You can't throw out a generalization and use One Eye as your example!!! I've lived and ridden in much the same area my whole life. Been kiting 17 years now. TT, surfboards, now foils. Needed 16m kites back in the day just to get a measly 20-30 sessions a summer. Now a 10m works as my absolute light air kite and it gets about half the use of my 8m. No one is saying foiling on a 10 is as much fun as the session in your pic, but it beats the hell out of using a 12m round here. When average riders are on their 12m and a tt I can be boosting my ass off on a 10m and a TT simply due to efficiencies gained from years of experience and most definitely techniques developed while foiling. This new material promises to make that even easier. I get that a 12m is still the most common size out there, but the sport has evolved a great deal in just the last few years and for many of us. There is no joy in a 12m and tt/surfboard.

I don't doubt your fun, but you have no context of mine either.