Duotone lines still poor quality?

[Matteo V]

aka dickhead-at-duotone

The best way to do more for your oppositions position than yours!

Just for a little perspective..............

Bottom line is that Duotone/Old North lines are great for the first few sessions. But that is where it ends, and kiters have been complaining about that line for at least 8 years, as far as I am aware. And no other brand has as bad of a reputation for lines as Duotone/Old North, besides maybe Best who was using identical lines around the same time that kiters were realizing how bad these lines were compared to ANY other alternative.

Dan, I don't envy having your job of apologizing/smoothing it over for the idiots above you that have not listened to their customers on this for that long. But I think with your comments here, Duotone's time is up. You need to pass this on to the higher ups. Most of us here have been "just a link in a chain" in a big corporation before. It is no fun when you see an obvious problem, and no one will listen to you. Then shortly thereafter, everyone is telling you to do damage control on that exact same problem you pointed out and wanted fixed before it became critical. But kiteboarding customers can be somewhat forgiving. Duotone makes some great gear, and just using any tight braid line on the market will get some of your customers back. But more importantly it will "sweep under the rug" the reputation of Duotone being the only manufacture in 2020 where you buy a bar and immediately change out the flying lineset before you use it.

[Adventure Logs]

aka dickhead-at-duotone

Wow I think this is the first post I've seen in awhile where you didn't push Panish. Still throwing out those insults I see

[Dan-at-Duotone]

Deniska- I believe the breaking strength is around 340kg. Again, I would not worry about the breaking strength, as I said I'm a big dude who breaks things and I haven't broken a line since we switched to our current lines. I don't think the complaints here are about breaking strength but rather longevity (just what I'm inferring from many posts). All of our team riders at KOTA are riding stock lines so I have no hesitation telling you the lines are fine for high winds and big kiteloops. Keep an eye on them and once they start visibly aging then I would start considering replacement.

COR- You misread my intention with that sentence! I can see how you would interpret what I wrote as terribly egocentric/"our shit is the best because we sell the most of it". That's not at all what I was saying... I mentioned it only to highlight the fact that since we have so many bars on the market, and since you generally only hear negative feedback on forums, there's going to be more negative press about our bars than other bars. All that being said, I'm not trying to say every complaint is unwarranted/trolling... Clearly there is room for improvement on our lines. The guys at international are WELL aware of this. The point of my response was not to say that we make the best of everything, I clearly admitted that there are better line options on the market, but simply to put some perspective on this issue for others (such as Deniska) who might read these threads and think we're using toothfloss for lines. Our lines work great, they were specifically selected because we felt they offered the best mix of characteristics for kiteboarding, but clearly there is room for improvement, as far as I can tell mostly on the longevity front. How's this for a balanced assessment: I think our lines work at least as well as any other lines on the market in terms of strength/responsiveness/stretch/shrinkage/tangling, but you need to monitor and replace the lines when they start to show signs of age. It appears that reasonably heavy use can mean replacing lines every 10-12 months, which it seems from many postings here is more frequent than with some other lines on the market. In short: our lines age too quickly relative to other offerings currently on the market. Does this sound like a fair statement?

zlatco23- Our lines are 8 strand, not 12 strand. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. I can't remember all the arguments for-and-against each of those, I think a big part of our decision was based on the fact that 8 strand is a looser weave so it won't catch as much sand and therefore won't have as much shrinkage/need to tune lines. It also means for those who have only used 12 or higher strand before that ours will feel weird. Or maybe you had an aged lineset.

Matteo V- Good points. You say you've heard complaints for the past 8 years about our bars. I believe you, but I never heard anything until much more recently... this whole thing blindsided me about 1-2 years ago... I honestly thought we had the best lines on the market and discounted the occasional thread I'd see over the years complaining about our lines. Clearly I was wrong. But I think everyone in our head office had the same response. They are aware that the market wants us to change our lines and we're working on it. Anyone who has been watching Rolf's instagram (and others) may be able to tell that we've made it a priority. We probably could have rushed something to market a little sooner but like I said, we aren't just going to pick an item from the menu and start building it (and remember it takes many months simply to produce the lines before we start installing them on the bar); we're going to test like crazy and hopefully come up with the best option possible before releasing it to the market.

To anyone who owns one of our bars and feels that their lines are not the same quality you expect from a brand like Duotone I'm honestly sorry. I use these lines and think they're the bees knees, I know many people who have years of satisfaction from their lines and bars but I also know that there are many people out there with legitimate complaints and unhappiness. Everyone at Duotone is aware that the market expects more longevity from lines and we've made it a priority to figure out a solution that will keep our current happy customers happy and improve the experience for those looking for more.

To everyone who has been posting reasonably with questions/complaints/insights I honestly appreciate it even if you disagree with me. Gives me faith there are real humans on the internet and not just trolls.

Again, feel free to respond here or via PM with further questions/thoughts.

-Dan

[leepasty]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed but i looked at some North kites on demo the other day, Orbit, pulse, carve andvit appears they use the same line on their bridles as Duotone use for the lines?

I personally have never snapped a line although i do change bars every year but then again i ride as much in 1 year as most people in 5 years.

I do know some people that have snapped lines on both click and quad bar during heavy crashes which if the line had not broke could of been much worse.
I think mostly as long as you check lines for wear you are fine.
I for one am not a fan of the stiff thick lines some brands use.
Cheers

[zlatko23]

@Dan-at-Duotone Thank you for taking the time to answer! I understand your point and it might be the lines being thinner adds to general bad/awkward impression they made on me. But still there are too many complaints on the premature deterioration of the lines out there, that it is hard to ignore. I agree vast majority in the forums just rants and insults left and right, but there many opinions, well argumented and coming even from brand loyalists.
What I was glad to hear is that the there is general consensus in your company that lines quality should be improved, as this is something bothering your custiomers.

[evan]

Deniska- I believe the breaking strength is around 340kg. .

-Dan

That is the factory value, not the strength when spliced. With 8-strand lines the splice strength is greatly reduced. Having a non-tapered very short splice reduces the strength even more. Especially when the lines get frayed at the point where the splice goes from thick to thin.

Did some testing on my pulling rig. Not calibrated for exact values, but for comparison: a sk99 line of the same thickness as the duotone lines did consistently break in the 500-550kg range when spliced.
Now duotone(new):
Sleeved: 220-260kg
Spliced: 200-220kg

Original old sleeved North/duotone lines went as low as 110kg after year of (good) use due to the hard edge of the shrink wrap. Sadly didn't test the used spliced lines yet.



Just to show that stating factory values doesn't tell the whole story. The proper way a line is finished determines also a big part of the final strength as well as how fast they deteriorate due to the environment.
That's why you also have those wildly different opinions about the lifespan of certain lines. On the other hand : some riders manage to break even the strongest lines in months.

[iriejohn]

This is clear incontrovertible evidence.

Deniska- I believe the breaking strength is around 340kg. .

-Dan

That is the factory value, not the strength when spliced. With 8-strand lines the splice strength is greatly reduced. Having a non-tapered very short splice reduces the strength even more. Especially when the lines get frayed at the point where the splice goes from thick to thin.

Did some testing on my pulling rig. Not calibrated for exact values, but for comparison: a sk99 line of the same thickness as the duotone lines did consistently break in the 500-550kg range when spliced.
Now duotone(new):
Sleeved: 220-260kg
Spliced: 200-220kg

Original old sleeved North/duotone lines went as low as 110kg after year of (good) use due to the hard edge of the shrink wrap. Sadly didn't test the used spliced lines yet.

Just to show that stating factory values doesn't tell the whole story. The proper way a line is finished determines also a big part of the final strength as well as how fast they deteriorate due to the environment.
That's why you also have those wildly different opinions about the lifespan of certain lines. On the other hand : some riders manage to break even the strongest lines in months.

[foilholio]

It gets tiring these long essays from duotone on why this or why that. In the end it is just marketing. They trash talk others ways and big up their own. Ken still can't make a winner can he and you had to outsource to make a decent foil kite... from a paragliding company. Still lacking though because paraglider does not = good kite...

So with some time lets begin.

I understand that everyone is all about SK99 lines. It offers slightly better breaking strength (which is really the least important metric of a line...

OK so breaking strength is the least important metric. Thankyou great what is the most important then?

If you are overloading any new line on the market right now you're doing something wrong and you're probably happy that the line fails)

Ok I didn't know I should be happy if a line breaks but thanks! Hear that people with broken lines you should be happy! And if you broke it even though you are probably happy, you did something wrong, but don't worry be happy! Happy Happy happy!

(SK99) in theory has some other advantages to the FL-10 lines we've been using for the last 5 years

Yes in theory, don't admit anything. Hangon you just did. 5 years using something that was "worse" and 2 years before that using something likely even worse. All while sk99 was around.

https://www.teufelberger.com/pub/media/ ... 16_web.pdf

teufelberger FL-10, 330daN, 1.6g/m, made from dyneema.

vs

liros dc-301, 325daN (but numbers range from 300 to 445), 1.45g/m, SK99

So approximately 10% less mass for similar strength but liros's numbers are weird.

teufelberger FL-34, 400daN, 1.85g/m, made from dyneema likely the same as FL-10.

teufelberger FL-27, 400daN, 1.3g/m, SK99.

Same brand likely same measurement methods. 30% less mass... not looking good now.

Now if we compare

Liros DC-300, 368daN, 1.8g/m, Sk75.

vs

liros dc-301, 325daN, 1.45g/m, SK99

we get 20% less mass. but we adjust for strength difference the at 1.64g/m the sk99 would have the same breaking strength. Or 9% less mass.

So by those figures the line Duotone uses is worse than Sk75(the cheap stuff) by quite some margin. but why is that? It's not like the people at Duotone don't have a clue designing , or understand design principles , especially when it comes to things that fly? I mean Ken can make a Winner can't he! Cue the webpage on why SK60 lines are superior for kiting....

No

We also add proprietary technology to our lines, the 'trace technology'

Now lets forgive you the fact you are confusing which company you work for or maybe you are also tosser-at-teufelberger, but I think we are moving onto some explanation to something though maybe not everything.

TEUFELBERGER flying lines feature TRACE.TECHNOLOGY, that is braided-in colored mono-
filament threads. This unique (and therefore as utility model protected) development
behaves in a manner similar to a toothbrush's bristle: the sustained restoring force always
causes the kite line to straighten itself again, and it also helps avoid extreme kink radii.
Such kinks may inflict structural damage on high tech fibers which reduces their breaking
strength, and, if worse comes to worst, causes the line to rupture.
Choose the right line for each application on the kite.

Hmm monofilament (old weak) added to an advanced fiber based material. Like adding water to beer! Wouldn't that make the line weaker?

However just saying "you should use line X vs line Y because of breaking strength" is way oversimplifying things.

Phew! Glad to know that. Obviously you understand the principles better than me! Kind of like saying Ken can't make a Winner is oversimplifying Duotone can't design!

Lets continue!

You can get B quality SK99 lines (and I know of at least one major brand doing this)

Holy crap! B grade SK99(Sk60?)! and you know someone using it(duotone?)! and maybe more(cabrinha?)? f***. Let me google this. Hang on B quality SK99 really only has your post. I can't even find anything on B quality dyneema. What does SK99 or or SK anything mean? Could it be a specification? No how could that be?

which weaves shorter strands of that material into a line that does not have the same specs of an A quality

Shorter stands? Like less than 20meters? Wow it's not like Dyneema is made from a continuous gel spun fiber is it?

If and when we switch to another line material it will not simply be a line off the menu from a line manufacturer.

Make sure it has 'tooth brush" tech! A kite line wouldn't be a duotone line without that. Duotone with toothbrush tech. Like click bar but for lines!

I am willing to admit that there are other lines on the market that make some customers happier

Not possible! There are lines that don't seem to break so how could these people be happier. It's absurd, duotone is the best. 5 years using toothbrush lines, I say f*** em go another 5 and then f*** em more. Up your prices and make em double toothbrush tech. There is nothing like running a company and enjoying the pleasure as you see just how much you can fuck your customers. One in the back 2 in the front I say. Invite the CEO in.

It appears that reasonably heavy use can mean replacing lines every 10-12 months

Yes the customer should be made to buy new click lines (with toothbrush tech) every 6 months I say. f*** jokers like me with some lines 17 years old that are like new. f*** those companies like liros and flysurfer. Bring on the line mafia . Bring on the kite mafia too. New kite ever 6 months too. Pansh? Send round the boys. Yerr.

To everyone who has been posting reasonably with questions/complaints/insights I honestly appreciate it even if you disagree with me. Gives me faith there are real humans on the internet and not just trolls.

Don't worry I am a russian bot, not a troll.

Sk99 is good for the lightest wind too not just jumping and racing.

why that? i use for a custom bar on a switch legacy.

Thinner less drag. Not that the legacy is going to benefit because I would not describe it as a lightwind kite, being a kite for under 10knots.

Did some testing on my pulling rig. Not calibrated for exact values, but for comparison: a sk99 line of the same thickness as the duotone lines did consistently break in the 500-550kg range when spliced.
Now duotone(new):
Sleeved: 220-260kg
Spliced: 200-220kg

Something is wrong with the splices, they should always be significantly stronger than sleeves. Don't tell me A duotone still uses sleeves and B they don't know how to do splices. Does Ken run the company?

[Teabageppo]

Jesus mate, you really do have an axe to grind!! Unfortunately it’s blunt so you just keep banging away like a whining child having a tantrum.

[Blackened]

Dan, rather than pile on, I'll just say that your longevity comment is spot on. It's not the strength of the lines - it's whether or not they wear so much they break after 1 season.

I watched Lasse Walker roll out his lines prior to KOTA at Dolphin. They were not the standard Duotone lines. They were thinner and brightly coloured. Nothing like I've seen on a Duotone bar previously. It could've been someone else's bar, but the wind hadn't come up yet and there was no one else in the carpark. If he was testing a new lineset, they certainly look the part.