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Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby UKSurf » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:08 am

Great to see a company really doing something innovative
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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby Kiterpep » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:26 am

So the principles of flight are quite simple, high lift, low drag and weight. The larger tube diameter offers no benefit on any of those. So to declare that a tube size is for some benefit of flight is incredibly stupid, but then apparently so are most kite designers...hence we have chicken loops. Tubes however are structural and diameter is a structural principal.
A larger tube diameter basically leads to a thicker airfoil. Airfoil thickness directly translates into more lift. In low-speed applications, you will see many thick airfoils, which allow more lift even when the wing moves slowly. This increases the stall speed drastically. Furthermore, thinner airfoils can have worse stall characteristics.

All this aside from the structural benefits you mention. A thinner leading edge is not necessarily leading to higher performance especially in light winds.

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby pikovsg » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:04 pm

@Toby As a matter of fact, I did drop a Cloud on a rock and not much happened. I’ve had Clouds for over three years. Nearly 500 Woo sessions on them and still going strong.

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby Greenturtle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:06 pm

foilholio wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:36 am
Greenturtle wrote: A faster snappier redirect will translate into higher boost especially in light wind.
Yes and no, more exciting but not necessarily higher.
Kite that is same in design but significantly lighter will climb faster, add to that a sharper redirect with less inertia also increases initial climb speed, for an overall much faster climb speed, generating more power. Kite charging faster to the upper edge of window most certainly will boost higher than the same kite in heavier construction. Maybe splitting hairs if weight difference isn’t huge but this time the difference is huge.

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby Greenturtle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:09 pm

Kiterpep wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:26 am
So the principles of flight are quite simple, high lift, low drag and weight. The larger tube diameter offers no benefit on any of those. So to declare that a tube size is for some benefit of flight is incredibly stupid, but then apparently so are most kite designers...hence we have chicken loops. Tubes however are structural and diameter is a structural principal.
A larger tube diameter basically leads to a thicker airfoil. Airfoil thickness directly translates into more lift. In low-speed applications, you will see many thick airfoils, which allow more lift even when the wing moves slowly. This increases the stall speed drastically. Furthermore, thinner airfoils can have worse stall characteristics.

All this aside from the structural benefits you mention. A thinner leading edge is not necessarily leading to higher performance especially in light winds.
A kite isn’t an airplane wing

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby Greenturtle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:17 pm

pikovsg wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:33 am
I loved and always promoted the idea of less weight and more rigidity. Aluula hopefully is that kite, but for over 5-6 years we've already had a much lighter, cheaper and faster turning kite - the BRM Cloud.

10m Aluula - 5.1lbs
10m Cloud - 4.3lbs

A pound lighter. Based on review vids, a good bit faster turning and drifting too. Clouds are almost religiously loved by pretty much every non-race foiler out there, including myself. Yet mainstream reviews for Clouds barely exist, outside of this forum. I don't mean to bark on Aluula at all or turn the discussion to the Clouds. Quite the opposite - major hopes for OR and will be first in line to demo it. It just seems strange that how much hype is going to Aluula tech vs. something we've had for years that's proven to work.
You got the weight wrong.
— aluula roam 10m is listed at 1.9kg —

10m aluula 4.2lbs
10m cloud 4.3lbs

... same weight as cloud only with top end performance plus structure for relaunch ... :thumb:
Last edited by Greenturtle on Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby Faxie » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:32 pm

Kiterpep wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:26 am
So the principles of flight are quite simple, high lift, low drag and weight. The larger tube diameter offers no benefit on any of those. So to declare that a tube size is for some benefit of flight is incredibly stupid, but then apparently so are most kite designers...hence we have chicken loops. Tubes however are structural and diameter is a structural principal.
A larger tube diameter basically leads to a thicker airfoil. Airfoil thickness directly translates into more lift. In low-speed applications, you will see many thick airfoils, which allow more lift even when the wing moves slowly. This increases the stall speed drastically. Furthermore, thinner airfoils can have worse stall characteristics.

All this aside from the structural benefits you mention. A thinner leading edge is not necessarily leading to higher performance especially in light winds.
Larger tube diameter limits the thickness of the profile. You can get a thick profile offcourse, but that's basically upscaling everything. With smaller diameter, you have more range to create the desired profile. You then have the problem of structural integrity, but Aluula is much better than dacron in that regard.

Shame the Bill Hansen blog about that topic has disappeared...

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby foilholio » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:41 pm

Kiterpep wrote: A larger tube diameter basically leads to a thicker airfoil.
No, a tube is not an airfoil.
Kiterpep wrote:Airfoil thickness directly translates into more lift.
No. An airfoil with no thickness can have high lift. How thick is the fabric on a kite? Point proven.
Kiterpep wrote: In low-speed applications, you will see many thick airfoils, which allow more lift even when the wing moves slowly
No. You don't understand what it is on your so called thick airfoil that is producing the high lift. It is the AoA and camber. Needless to say kites are not fixed and can move independent to the rider. Trying to limit the speed of the kite by having a high minimum drag through extra thickness is... incredibly stupid. But hey hello all to those kite designers, Durrdedurrdurr.
Kiterpep wrote:This increases the stall speed drastically.
You mean reduces, but you are wrong.
Kiterpep wrote: Furthermore, thinner airfoils can have worse stall characteristics.
Nope wrong again.
Kiterpep wrote:All this aside from the structural benefits you mention.
Well congratulations, 1 out 10 ain't bad!
Kiterpep wrote: A thinner leading edge is not necessarily leading to higher performance especially in light winds.
O dear well what can I say! :lol: Are you a kite designer? Or some how associated to a brand? Have input designing kites? Got this knowledge from a kite designer? Too many guesses I know. You are a kite designer aren't you. You little rascal you making shitty designs. Now go stick a chickenloop up your ass, right up there. Feel good? Ok now give up designing kites please. Thanks.
Toby wrote: Don’t forget that with Aluula we also get a very strong kite that holds crashes.
At 5 times stronger on the roam it should do well for that.
Toby wrote:Drop a Cloud on a rock and see what happens.
Drop any tube on a rock and see what happens including this Aluula stuff. Strutless kites because they are more flexible are more durable. But a sharp rock can damage most things.
Toby wrote: I know there are good performing 20 Sqm kites, but safety wise I prefer a tube over a foil.
I know we have discussed foils vs tube for airstyle before and tubes are easier. I would not say a tube is safer by any margin. Yes they can't float you well but you can(with equipment) and so can your board and so too can you kite close enough to swim in. Foils don't deathloop, they flag very well and won't relaunch with a tangle. They can be made to sit on the water very easy. You can pull with your hand on any line and they will flag and sit on the water. They are very reliable and durable kites. I self launch and land in all winds no issues, though with some of the power you go out with you might want a fifth line to land.
Greenturtle wrote:A kite isn’t an airplane wing
:roll: :o Oh do elaborate.

I see everyone's ignorance is coming out.

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby Greenturtle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:49 pm

Including yours :allbegood:

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Re: Aluula Composites | Episode # 135

Postby foilholio » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:00 pm

Don't want to be right I see. Be as you were.

You can't make a blind man see, seems to prove truer and truer the older I get.
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