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New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby decay » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:51 am

sq225917 wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:28 pm
I think that's as clear as mud, pure obscurification. Especially if he's done 'hundreds of tests'.

You take as many Afnor designed bars and as many ISO designed bars as you can find and you test them all under both testing standards. Then you crunch the results to see if there's a correlation between Afnor and ISO bars with regards to lowest release force. It's a moderate statistical challenge to find the standard deviation for each regime and pronounce a winner.

Having read the specs I'll settle for my initial presumption.
Your methodology above is actually what was done to arrive at the requirements for ISO21853.

The standard deviation of the ISO21853 test method is 300 to 500% more consistent than the AFNOR. However back to back testing on the same QR using both methods shows higher numbers using the ISO21853 method.

If the pass/fail numbers were the same between both ISO21853 and AFNOR it is highly unlikely any QR currently in production would pass.

The requirements to pass was not lowered in the new standard, the pass/fail points were chosen to as best as possible 'match' pass/fail results of previous requirements.

Cheers

DK

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby pmaggie » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:32 am

Maybe this new standard is the reason why Core switched to the push away...

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby Toby » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:10 am

pmaggie wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:32 am
Maybe this new standard is the reason why Core switched to the push away...
Not maybe, it is !

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby Toby » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:31 am

The label
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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby joriws » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:49 am

I find it weird that this new standard does not specify how much force-% is allowed to stay in flagged out kite. Or how many death loops done by kite and safety release has still to work.

so it would be according to ISO 21853 that you release the kite and kite keeps 90% of power, or kite does not flag at all because lines twisted too many times. I've seen few kiters flying through air despite of launching the kite to "safety".

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby purdyd » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:17 pm

joriws wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:49 am
I find it weird that this new standard does not specify how much force-% is allowed to stay in flagged out kite. Or how many death loops done by kite and safety release has still to work.

so it would be according to ISO 21853 that you release the kite and kite keeps 90% of power, or kite does not flag at all because lines twisted too many times. I've seen few kiters flying through air despite of launching the kite to "safety".
The iso standard updates the AFNOR (French) and is quick releases and leashes.

https://webstore.ansi.org/Standards/IS ... gJDY_D_BwE
Kite Boarding - Release System - Safety Requirements And Test Methods
Yes I would agree that there are other things that could be addressed,

Why this is a milestone is that it is the first standard released by the GKA.

https://www.global-kitesports.org/

Presumably more will follow.

https://www.global-kitesports.org/file ... 0brand.pdf
Brand
Core Duotone
Airush
Flysurfer
RRD
Ocean Rodeo
Product (ISO 21853 compliant)
Sensor 3 Bar, all varieties
Clickbar - Iron Heart V
Trustbar - Iron Heart IV
Short Safety Leash
Neoprene covered Safety leash
Cleat Bar V4 Access Bar V2
AP Bar V5
Ultra Bar V2 Progression Bar V3
Quick Release 4.0 Short Safety Leash
GLOBAL BAR Y25
ISO compliant products per brand
Shift Bar with Gen 9 Punch-Out Trim Loop Pilot Bar with Gen 9 Punch-Out Trim Loop Freeride Leash Gen 9

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby Windwarrior » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:25 pm

Toby wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:10 am
pmaggie wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:32 am
Maybe this new standard is the reason why Core switched to the push away...
Not maybe, it is !
No, it is not!

The ISO does not determine the direction of movement to release the QR.

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby Baptiste_FR » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:06 pm

There is actually a intense debate among kite instructors (on a Facebook page).
Many of them say that it is not a good thing to increase the maximum force to activate the release from max 100N (AFNOR) to max 170N (ISO). They say that it will become difficult to activate the quick release for children and young, especially when there is a strong tension in the lines and the kite is not pulling in front of the person. It could become difficult for kids to activate the release with one hand.
In their eyes, this change is only needed for Pro competitors that do really advanced and "engaged" tricks that may result, in rare cases, to activate the quick release (for instance the Ruben Lenten accident).
And a minority feels that brands are pushing that way to manufacture cheaper bars, but selling it the same price. It is in fact more complex to make a durable mechanism that old the tension and activate below 100N than 170N.

Of course, the new norm sets a maximum force, and it is likely that many brands will stick to their actual setting. They could also propose 2 different bar for costumers : freeride bars (100N) and freestyle/big air bar (170N).

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby decay » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:41 pm

Baptiste_FR wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:06 pm
There is actually a intense debate among kite instructors (on a Facebook page).
Many of them say that it is not a good thing to increase the maximum force to activate the release from max 100N (AFNOR) to max 170N (ISO). They say that it will become difficult to activate the quick release for children and young, especially when there is a strong tension in the lines and the kite is not pulling in front of the person. It could become difficult for kids to activate the release with one hand.
In their eyes, this change is only needed for Pro competitors that do really advanced and "engaged" tricks that may result, in rare cases, to activate the quick release (for instance the Ruben Lenten accident).
And a minority feels that brands are pushing that way to manufacture cheaper bars, but selling it the same price. It is in fact more complex to make a durable mechanism that old the tension and activate below 100N than 170N.

Of course, the new norm sets a maximum force, and it is likely that many brands will stick to their actual setting. They could also propose 2 different bar for costumers : freeride bars (100N) and freestyle/big air bar (170N).
Hey Baptiste, could you post a link to that debate?

Cheers

DK

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Re: New Milestone in Kitesports Safety: ISO Standard 21853 on Quick-Release Systems

Postby Baptiste_FR » Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:51 pm

It's in French. It's a page about security in kitesurf by the Frenck kitesurf federation:


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