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Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

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vela99
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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby vela99 » Fri May 08, 2020 4:41 pm

Just to add my two cents on the aluminium vs. carbon discussion; for me the closest analogy would be a windsurfing boom (wishbone).

I have broken about 10 aluminium booms over a period of many years and with the exeption of one all broke due to corrosion fatigue. Yes, aluminium deteriorates with salt water and with the use a fatigue crack develops.

In my case no warning signs or just a second or two before failure. Also, the resulting edges were razor sharp and often were with a tooth pattern. Risk of injury or damage to sail and board.

I have finally switched to a carbon boom for I realize that it will not be more expensive, safer and provides added performance due to weight and stiffness. (I would however dare to say that there are more advantages to carbon for a boom when compared to a bar)
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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby juanpasala » Fri May 08, 2020 8:25 pm

downunder wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:47 am
Short answer, yes.

Because none of this bars people are using are tested. Particularly DIY bars.

If used in a light wind, fine. But lets say it snaps and sharp pieces end up in the eye? Is it worth risking? I rather risk a snapped line or whatever.

I'm sure bike industry can afford testing...Just remember Ozone 'tested' a new bar release which ended in a failure. It can happen to the best.
But how can you test the bar is you have to destroy it first?
It is totally impossible to run the test for each bar, so what some of us did is make one, break it, and then asume the other bars made in the same way will behave similarly to the one we tested.

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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby Jyoder » Fri May 08, 2020 9:11 pm

My DIY 20x25mm (ID/OD) x 65cm light wind KISS bar for 15m Flysurfer Race foil kite, 406g with diy release and 30m lines.
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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby grigorib » Fri May 08, 2020 9:46 pm

Here’s my KISS bar with 24m lines. Rode it first time with 4m SST yesterday and enjoyed it. Thin lines sing loud :)

Well worth the money
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Last edited by grigorib on Fri May 08, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby jumptheshark » Fri May 08, 2020 10:11 pm

Weight is a huge factor.

Most important in kites.

Still pretty important for foils and boards.

Little less important in bars, lines, harnesses etc.

Just my opinion.

A really heavy bar might suck, but I'm pretty happy with the ones I've found. I will spend funds on another few peaks before I ever consider changing bars.

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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby grigorib » Fri May 08, 2020 10:31 pm

Other than reducing weight for plane travel it’s rather cool factor. I imagine if someone starts making carbon pumps with Kevlar core hose for $500 a piece - there’ll be some demand for those too
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downunder
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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby downunder » Sat May 09, 2020 1:51 am

juanpasala wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:25 pm
downunder wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:47 am
Short answer, yes.

Because none of this bars people are using are tested. Particularly DIY bars.

If used in a light wind, fine. But lets say it snaps and sharp pieces end up in the eye? Is it worth risking? I rather risk a snapped line or whatever.

I'm sure bike industry can afford testing...Just remember Ozone 'tested' a new bar release which ended in a failure. It can happen to the best.
But how can you test the bar is you have to destroy it first?
It is totally impossible to run the test for each bar, so what some of us did is make one, break it, and then asume the other bars made in the same way will behave similarly to the one we tested.
Not really no.

There are tests and tests. No one needs to do a destructive test.

One example, got new race lines. Snapped it near loop on first usage.

If I've put a 50kg load on that line before first usage, it would probably snap. Destructive test is 500kg of load, and more.

I did have a long discussion with MattV about using carbon in my builds:

viewtopic.php?f=107&t=2382042&p=890031& ... lmet+build


So helmet is a good example, one hit and it will be compromised. Same as any other bike helmet.

Again, silly comparison with carbon WS booms (masts). We just do not drill huge holes on them ;) Look at the above pic (just an example), make a proportional hole in WS boom, and than report back ;)

So, go for carbon, by all means. I am using DIY carbon helmet, but WELL know the consequences. It's $5 build, right? ;)

Carbon pump? It's been done. Sitting in my garage:

viewtopic.php?f=107&t=2387757&hilit=Carbon+pump

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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby evan » Sat May 09, 2020 5:09 am

grigorib wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 10:31 pm
Other than reducing weight for plane travel it’s rather cool factor. I imagine if someone starts making carbon pumps with Kevlar core hose for $500 a piece - there’ll be some demand for those too
There is more to it than saving weight for traveling.

Take the Cabrinha overdrive bar for example, where the majority of the weight is in the barends with the size adjustment and big floaters. Even normal riders reported that they feel it was too heavy.

Every time you turn and spin the bar you are fighting against the rotational inertia, so less weight means less force needed for small and quick actions. This becomes more noticeable on modern kites with less bar pressure.

This is why a light bar feels more responsive and less demanding. I get almost instantly sore arms as some movements are way harder to do on a normal bar and I am too spoiled by using light bars for years now.

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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby drsurf » Sat May 09, 2020 12:10 pm

downunder wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:51 am
juanpasala wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:25 pm
downunder wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:47 am
Short answer, yes.

Because none of this bars people are using are tested. Particularly DIY bars.

If used in a light wind, fine. But lets say it snaps and sharp pieces end up in the eye? Is it worth risking? I rather risk a snapped line or whatever.

I'm sure bike industry can afford testing...Just remember Ozone 'tested' a new bar release which ended in a failure. It can happen to the best.
But how can you test the bar is you have to destroy it first?
It is totally impossible to run the test for each bar, so what some of us did is make one, break it, and then asume the other bars made in the same way will behave similarly to the one we tested.
Not really no.

There are tests and tests. No one needs to do a destructive test.

One example, got new race lines. Snapped it near loop on first usage.

If I've put a 50kg load on that line before first usage, it would probably snap. Destructive test is 500kg of load, and more.

I did have a long discussion with MattV about using carbon in my builds:

viewtopic.php?f=107&t=2382042&p=890031& ... lmet+build


So helmet is a good example, one hit and it will be compromised. Same as any other bike helmet.

Again, silly comparison with carbon WS booms (masts). We just do not drill huge holes on them ;) Look at the above pic (just an example), make a proportional hole in WS boom, and than report back ;)

So, go for carbon, by all means. I am using DIY carbon helmet, but WELL know the consequences. It's $5 build, right? ;)

Carbon pump? It's been done. Sitting in my garage:

viewtopic.php?f=107&t=2387757&hilit=Carbon+pump
You're just running a straw man argument downunder. Where are your tests of alloy bars after saltwater exposure? You're making an issue out of nothing.

Nobody has come to this thread with copious reports of carbon bars failing yet there are plenty of reports of alloy bars and other alloy components failing. By the way holes are drilled in windsurf booms to make them adjustable. I have also sold carbon windsurf booms over the last 20 years and guess where a lot of them broke, at the alloy mast connection!
And as another example alloy masts for windsurfing were discontinued a couple of decades ago because of their failure rate compared to carbon composite masts.

You can be sure that manufacturers of kite bars for OEM companies will be looking to produce carbon bars as replacement for alloy ones, and just like mountain bike carbon bars, once the manufacturing volumes have reached scale they'll be the same price and we'll wonder why anyone would use alloy bar which corrodes.

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Re: Are Carbon Bars worth the extra price?

Postby downunder » Sat May 09, 2020 1:49 pm

drsurf wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 12:10 pm
.


You're just running a straw man argument downunder. Where are your tests of alloy bars after saltwater exposure? You're making an issue out of nothing.

Nobody has come to this thread with copious reports of carbon bars failing yet there are plenty of reports of alloy bars and other alloy components failing. By the way holes are drilled in windsurf booms to make them adjustable. I have also sold carbon windsurf booms over the last 20 years and guess where a lot of them broke, at the alloy mast connection!
And as another example alloy masts for windsurfing were discontinued a couple of decades ago because of their failure rate compared to carbon composite masts.

You can be sure that manufacturers of kite bars for OEM companies will be looking to produce carbon bars as replacement for alloy ones, and just like mountain bike carbon bars, once the manufacturing volumes have reached scale they'll be the same price and we'll wonder why anyone would use alloy bar which corrodes.
Typical seabreeze style reply.

There is 0.01% of carbon bars market, and u expecting huge numbers of reports? Please.

U expecting the same intake as in bike riding?

the WS boom is double the size in diametar of kiting bar, in relation to the hole in the middle of the bar that would be 10-16mm hole on one side and 60-80mm by 10-15mm on the other!

No carbon tube would survive this since wall thickness on ws boom can be 1.2mm thick. Or even less.

Alloy bar corrodes? Do you wash your Alu dingy or not? I would have thought splashing tap water after sesh is a good thing. I must be wrong.

Have no idea why WS guys wash every single piece of WS equipment. Every time. All the time.

I did not raise the issue. The OP did. I have absolutely no problem with a bar which has carbon handles and rock solid metal or similar centre part.

But this is NOT what's discussed here.

Straw man.

I mean, this is almost discussion like a few years ago where I claimed that Wichard is perfectly acceptable release. ney sayers ( meaning opponents), were all suggesting that is not.

And this days every 'second' foiler is using Wichard ;) it's even offered as preferred release. How ironic.

So maybe we will be paying a $1000 for a carbon bar in the future. Have no crystal ball to know.

Till than, good luck!
Last edited by downunder on Sat May 09, 2020 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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