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Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

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nixmatters
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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby nixmatters » Mon May 18, 2020 8:18 am

kjorn wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 7:46 pm
we wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 3:59 pm
It will be interesting how accurate this is for jumps. A WOO with a purpose built accelerometer should be a lot more accurate than the built in accelerometer in a phone. My experience is the GPS in a phone (both Apple and Samsung) is very inaccurate versus a specialized GPS. With that said, this should be really cool if it works and I could see a lot of benefits having a phone with you for safety.
New phones will have GOS and GNSS which is cm level accuracy.
How much more accurate will the positioning be with a chip reading Galileo as well?
My Huawei phone is obviously reading only GPS, GLONASS and Beidou

https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news ... its-market

https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news ... erformance
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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon May 18, 2020 9:08 am

Out of interest, will you be charging a subscription service? I think this is what PIQ/Woo/Xensr all did wrong. Once someone has the hardware, it still costs a small amount to keep the servers running. $3-4 a year over a few thousand people would cover the server costs.

Brings its own support problems as soon as you start charging but its the only way I can see something like this being sustainable and being equivalent to a days parking at the beach seems a reasonable cost to bear.

Edit: Thinking about it, being ad-supported within the eco-system might also work too.
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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby Kitemenn » Mon May 18, 2020 10:05 am

Great work Herbert! Amazing you are doing this for free for now! But as you hear lots of people are more than OK with a yearly small fee! It looks like you are covering a lot of funcionality we all begged for at WOO.

Intersted to see some readers feedback but the threshold to go out and try this one is so low that I am sure the userbase will spike ones it becomes available and can be a serious treath for WOO.

Also having the phone with you can bring some benefits as mentioned before only problem might be connection as on the water the reception isnt always that good.

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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby BenBen » Mon May 18, 2020 10:47 am

I guess the phone will show the results offline, too? Since you tested the devices: has there been any broken smartphones during the testings? I could imagine a hard landing from 15m could be challenging for displays. How are your experiences on that issue? I preordered a case - but i guess i ll put an old device in there first :)

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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby Leon van Bergen » Mon May 18, 2020 11:33 am

nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 9:08 am
Out of interest, will you be charging a subscription service? I think this is what PIQ/Woo/Xensr all did wrong. Once someone has the hardware, it still costs a small amount to keep the servers running. $3-4 a year over a few thousand people would cover the server costs.

Brings its own support problems as soon as you start charging but its the only way I can see something like this being sustainable and being equivalent to a days parking at the beach seems a reasonable cost to bear.

Edit: Thinking about it, being ad-supported within the eco-system might also work too.
Agree, PIQ/Woo/Xensr had no continuous cash flow and thats stupid and keeps them from moving forward.
For sure me but also all of my kite friends would easily pay €10-20 a year for a good device/app with real time info and all the features Woo has and especially features Woo hasn't like GPS, display etc.

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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby Havre » Mon May 18, 2020 12:13 pm

I can only agree with the last couple of points. Great that someone is doing this motivated by something else than pure profit, but I think the best thing would be to establish a monthly/yearly fee structure as early as possible. Getting something for free that you suddenly would have to pay never seems to work as smoothly as you might think. And there will always be some cost with this product even if you consider the development more as a "hobby". Where will all the data recorded be stored? I don't know, but I am sure there will be some running cost at some point. Obviously the users should pay for that.

I guess the alternative is ads? Before you see the height of the jump you just made you have to watch a 30sec Heineken commercial :D

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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby herbertv123 » Mon May 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Wow, thanks for all the reactions and enthusiasm. Try to respond to most of it in this reply, without repeating all the quotes of others.

Watches: a watch can not be used solely without the phone to correctly measure height, unless you tape the watch to the board and the watch should have accelerometer and gyro as well. The thing is: it has to be mounted to the board. We did a lot of testing with chest mounting, but it didn't work to well. Maybe it's gonna be possible later, but the early findings indicate that this will be very very hard without something mounted to the board

Subscription model: As stated in the FAQ we probably will introduce a subscription model in the future. But at this point there is no need for that, and we also would like to see the app growing as fast as possible. Probably adding a premium/subscription model later on. I totally agree that subscription model is the way to go in the long run. Selling mounts is not that interesting since it has no continuity in terms of revenue. Making money of this has never been my goal for this, justed wanted to see if I could make work out of my biggest passion: kite boarding. Considered doing an instructor course as well to make work out of kite boarding, but ended up programming again :). It all started as a big challenge: can it be done. This doesn't mean I don't think long term, and how it looks now I will be working on this fulltime for the foreseeable future, so beside hosting costs I probably need a income from this as well. But I recently sold my previous IT company which make it possible for me to 'work for free' right now. Good to hear that I subscription fee of a small monthly/yearly amount is considered fair. I don't consider this to be a hobby project (in terms of taking this serious), have worked on it for months on 60-80 hour basis per week. New functionalities will drop every few weeks/months :).

Merging leaderboards: This would be very hard because you can't compare WOO to Surfr. Surfr. is measuring 20-25% lower on average. Of course it would be easy to correct this, but we believe in our own measurements. We will publish some info about this soon, we're going to create a test setup with poles and jump right in front of it (think like jumping pole stick). I think people will start using this beside their current sensor at first. In just 2 days time already hundreds of people pre-ordered the mount, which is way more than I expected. So I guess and hope the community will grow rapidly.

Offline/Online: the app can operate offline and record everything offline. All calculations happens offline on the device. Live will only work with internet connection (obviously). Reception on the water so far has been pretty good.

Future development: please PM me ideas of post them here for the app. I think there are so much possibilities with the combination of internet + GPS, accelerometer and gyroscope.
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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby faklord » Mon May 18, 2020 1:50 pm

If phone battery life and/or display visibility are issues, one option may be to turn the phone screen off and stream the data to a watch for display?

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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby herbertv123 » Mon May 18, 2020 2:30 pm

faklord wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:50 pm
If phone battery life and/or display visibility are issues, one option may be to turn the phone screen off and stream the data to a watch for display?
Yes. It uses approx 10% per hour as we have seen so far. The record screen is black on purpose, this requires no energy on most of the amoled screens. The main battery usage comes from reading the sensors though

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Re: Surfr. New kitesurf jump app?

Postby Havre » Mon May 18, 2020 3:53 pm

Woo doesn't work for me. Far too much randomness in the measurements. I have no idea if this will be better, but the current Woo leaderboard is more like a casino where you luck out with some reading than a proper leaderboard you can compete on. If you can make this better than I wouldn't worry about any merging of leaderboards.

At some point in the future where you might have different providers providing equally good proper measurements then sure. Let us get there first.


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