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Duotone 2021

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Havre
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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby Havre » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:54 pm

All depends on the overall production costs for me. If sourcing different materials and producing two different lines increases overall costs then everyone are losing. If that is negligible I don't see why offering two products is an issue?

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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby Faxie » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:08 pm

Exal wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:41 pm
apollo4000 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:24 pm
6m Neo price compare
£1,189 SLS
£1,029 standard

....not sure why running two products if not just for positioning to counter Ocean Rodeo.
Would probably piss some people off who liked the normal neo and don't want to spend more for that new stuff. Will also give duotone the chance to finetune the SLS and ditch the old materials later on when everyone is a bit familiar with it.
They're gonna ditch PentaTX when Aluula is available everywhere. I give it 3-4 years.

I still cannot find anything about what material it actually is. Looking at the specs and price, my guess is still that it's lighter Dacron (so polyester) with a double ripstop dyneema thread and maybe a new coating. Makes me wonder about the puncture and abrasion resistance, and also the strength of the seams...

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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby wrogu » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:10 pm

Probably its not so amazing for neo, cause you most often try to use smaller sizes. Or maybe stiffer frame will make a difference in gusty winds, who knows. However for larger sizes - rebel or Evo it might make a difference due to greater weight savings. I wonder if Vegas/dice will suffer from lower weight or not - in terms od slack for unhooked tricks.

Note that alula is way more expensive than the penta tx.

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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby Leon van Bergen » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:55 pm


Leon van Bergen
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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby Leon van Bergen » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:57 pm


BrinM
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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby BrinM » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:27 pm

Dyneema woven with polyester would be a challenge for a lightweight technical fabric

Polyester and UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene...what a mouthfu = Dyneema) are very different fibres with different properties....hard to make a stable performance fabric I would guess its unlikely that such a mixture would make it to market...

but ya never know......

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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby Jose » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:43 pm

apollo4000 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:24 pm
6m Neo price compare
£1,189 SLS
£1,029 standard

....not sure why running two products if not just for positioning to counter Ocean Rodeo.

Why Duotone not show weight sls neo 2021 to compare with neo 2021, the wind range is the same..... not special....

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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby Exal » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:28 pm

Jose wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:43 pm
apollo4000 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:24 pm
6m Neo price compare
£1,189 SLS
£1,029 standard

....not sure why running two products if not just for positioning to counter Ocean Rodeo.

Why Duotone not show weight sls neo 2021 to compare with neo 2021, the wind range is the same..... not special....
I was wondering that too but they say in those videos half a kg weight reduction. The neo also has 3 settings now on the wingtip pretty sure my 2018 only had 2. If the kite really got faster with better direct feel and even better with drift then this will be a weapon. Only reason my friends on reos don't like the neo is because the Reo is lighter feel and faster/more direct. I'll never need one probably because my wave riding stops at little/medium waves 🤣 probably great for the maniacs that chase swell.

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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby nixmatters » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:42 pm

BrinM wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:27 pm
Dyneema woven with polyester would be a challenge for a lightweight technical fabric

Polyester and UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene...what a mouthfu = Dyneema) are very different fibres with different properties....hard to make a stable performance fabric I would guess its unlikely that such a mixture would make it to market...

but ya never know......
Spot on!
I'd like to add what you spared us: :wink:
- UHMWPE yarns are very slippery, so even if very dense woven the weave won't be as stable as 100% HT Polyester
- poor adhesion properties make the coating and impregnation not very long lasting (Aluula is a different thing)
- the very different modulus and stretch of the 2 yarns would result in UHMWPE yarns (supposedly ripstop only) taking all the load, long before the polyester yarns do. Which will most likely result in lower tensile strength.

Nevertheless, such canopy ripstop fabric was developped few years ago, but never made it to market. Tear strength was ridiculously high, to the point where if a damage happens it's a very ugly one and much more difficult to repair. And bias elongation was not better than a conventional polyester ripstop.
Faxie wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:08 pm
...
I still cannot find anything about what material it actually is. Looking at the specs and price, my guess is still that it's lighter Dacron (so polyester) with a double ripstop dyneema thread and maybe a new coating. Makes me wonder about the puncture and abrasion resistance, and also the strength of the seams...
It is a lighter Dacron, yet different.
Same type of polyester yarn, but different 'thickness'
Same weave pattern, but not so tight (therefore the 5x tear strength)
Different 'coating' type and process - actually similar to canopy coating - also contributing to the 5x tear strength.

The 5x tear strength I consider almost irrelevant and would put it at the bottom of the list with advantages over conventional dacron (for kite LE/struts). Too much marketing BS again.

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Re: Duotone 2021

Postby Faxie » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:26 pm

nixmatters wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:42 pm
BrinM wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:27 pm
Dyneema woven with polyester would be a challenge for a lightweight technical fabric

Polyester and UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene...what a mouthfu = Dyneema) are very different fibres with different properties....hard to make a stable performance fabric I would guess its unlikely that such a mixture would make it to market...

but ya never know......
Spot on!
I'd like to add what you spared us: :wink:
- UHMWPE yarns are very slippery, so even if very dense woven the weave won't be as stable as 100% HT Polyester
- poor adhesion properties make the coating and impregnation not very long lasting (Aluula is a different thing)
- the very different modulus and stretch of the 2 yarns would result in UHMWPE yarns (supposedly ripstop only) taking all the load, long before the polyester yarns do. Which will most likely result in lower tensile strength.

Nevertheless, such canopy ripstop fabric was developped few years ago, but never made it to market. Tear strength was ridiculously high, to the point where if a damage happens it's a very ugly one and much more difficult to repair. And bias elongation was not better than a conventional polyester ripstop.
Faxie wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:08 pm
...
I still cannot find anything about what material it actually is. Looking at the specs and price, my guess is still that it's lighter Dacron (so polyester) with a double ripstop dyneema thread and maybe a new coating. Makes me wonder about the puncture and abrasion resistance, and also the strength of the seams...
It is a lighter Dacron, yet different.
Same type of polyester yarn, but different 'thickness'
Same weave pattern, but not so tight (therefore the 5x tear strength)
Different 'coating' type and process - actually similar to canopy coating - also contributing to the 5x tear strength.

The 5x tear strength I consider almost irrelevant and would put it at the bottom of the list with advantages over conventional dacron (for kite LE/struts). Too much marketing BS again.
Same material, but lighter yet stronger?... I know coating is important, but it cannot make that much difference? It not like dacron isn't strong already... dacron uses high tenacity polyester too if I'm not mistaken? I wonder how they will hold up when the coating degrades.

Where did you get the info from? I coulnd't find it in the leaked pdf.

They sure know their marketing, that's true (pun intended)...
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