Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Forum for kitesurfers
User avatar
JimmyRyder
Rare Poster
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:36 am
Kiting since: 2012
Weight: 220
Local Beach: Atlanta - GA
Ocean Side - GA, SC, NC
Tampa - FL
Favorite Beaches: Tampa - USA
Cape Hatteras - USA
Charleston - USA
Tarifa - Spain
Lefkada - Greece
Rhodos - Greece
Gokceada - Turkey
Urla - Turkey
Alacati - Turkey
Cesme - Turkey
Soma Bay - Egypt
Elgouna - Egypt
Marsala - Italy
Mamaia - Romania
Sulina - Romania
Style: FreeRide; Snowkiting;
Gear: 2020 North - REACH - 10m
2020 Liquid Force - NV - 13.5m
2019 Liquid Force - SOLO - 15.5m

2020 Liquid Force - ABSOLUTE - 140cm
2020 Liquid Force - POD 4'4 - HydroBoard
2020 Liquid Force - IMPULSE - Hydrofoil
2020 Liquid Force - MESSENGER - Surfboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Atlanta / Tampa
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 2 times

How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby JimmyRyder » Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:53 am

Hello guys,

I've been riding different bars throughout the years from Ozone to Sling, Cab, Airush, etc.

The easiest to trim were the Core (has a 4:1 ratio) and some other custom race-bars (also 4:1 ratio).

So on my new
2020 NORTH gear I would like to turn the Trimming System into a 4:1 (or a 3:1 whichever works best) on my new Navigator bar.

I know that beside the existing parts the bar is made of, I will need an extra
longer line and one Slider.

The new Longer-Line and the Trimming Line will both be connected from the Loop on top end of the Depower Line (right at the cleat).

1) LONGER LINE (new line) - goes all the way through the Front Lines SWIVEL and back down - then the looped end will connect to a SLIDER.

2) TRIMMING LINE - will go through the SLIDER above mentioned line, then come down and through the CLEAT.

My questions are:

a) What type of line to use for the longer line (dynema, spectra, etc) ?!

b) What thickness should this line have ?! (obviously I prefer thinner but strong) :D

c) How long should this line be in order to not screw up the bar setting ?!

d) I know the Leader Lines should be replaced with longer once - How long should those be ?!

Thanks in advance for your input and help !!! :jump:

(this topic is addressed to the PROs that actually did and know this bar setting please)
Last edited by JimmyRyder on Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

knot_moving
Frequent Poster
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:13 am
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: kites: OR Flites & Cabrinha Velocity
Underground FLX 138, Slingshot foil, Mako Duke, Jimmy Lewis Flight Deck
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: NW Florida
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby knot_moving » Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:10 pm

JimmyRyder wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:53 am
Hello guys,

...

My questions are:

a) What type of line to use for the longer line (dynema, spectra, etc) ?!

b) What thickness should this line have ?! (obviously I prefer thinner but strong) :D

c) How long should this line be in order to not screw up the bar setting ?!

d) I know the Leader Lines should be replaced with longer once - How long should those be ?!

Thanks in advance for your input and help !!! :jump:

(this topic is addressed to the PROs that actually did and know this bar setting please)


Ok since no-one has replied that has actually done this with a North bar ...
I've modified a couple 2:1 bars to be 4:1. (a not relevant aside is that in the end I actually like 3:1 better)
I haven't done a 4:1 on north bar, but since you haven't had any replies, I'll answer your questions and provide a bit more info that you may or may not have thought about

a) I use Sk-75 dyneema.

b) I use 4mm, its plenty strong, thin and easy to splice

c) Measure from the bottom of the swivel to the top of the cleat. It needs to be 4 times this length; plus the length to go thru the swivel; plus the length to splice in a loop at the end and attach the slider with a larks head knot; minus the outside diameter of the slider; plus the length to attach this longer line to the trimming line.
  • I splice loop at end with a locking brummell splice and a 40 times diameter bury (I've seen 40-70 times bury, I use 40 with locking brummell and had no issues). I use 5cm for loop, 40 times diameter bury is 16cm and the length of the bury shrinks a bit so you need 3cm for that. So the end splice adds 25 cm measured from the top of the loop to the end of the splice tail. The loop is sized for the larks head around a 2.5cm OD slider. I also splice this line into the trim line using a locking Brummell splice and 40 times bury, so this adds 16cm buried into the trim line.
  • Line is 3 times original length up to the swivel and one times back down to the slider. This puts the bottom of the slider at twice the distance of the original swivel


d) leader lines and the flag-out line need to have extensions added that are twice the original length you measured from swivel to the cleat.

The original trim line will no longer work. It is too short. With the 4:1 setup you have to pull twice as much on the trim line as with the original 2:1 setup, so you need a trim line that is twice as long. I've always found that it is easiest to just completely remove the existing trim line and start over.

What I do:
  • Remove the existing trim line by taking it apart at the quick release.
  • use a 12 strand single braid trim line diameter that is about half the diameter than the original. Needs to be slightly smaller because the diameter will grow where you splice in the long line and if you need to splice a loop at the end to attach to QR. I use 4mm Sk-75 dyneema because it is easy to splice, but I am toying with trying something that is not quite so slippery so that when I am trimming it is more comfy. I tried one alternative and it was such a devil to splice that I've gone back to sk-75 dyneema. Depending on the diameter of the PU tube, you may need to use 3mm sk-75. If so you will have to calculate the shrinkage and the bury lengths yourself - or use the numbers for 4mm and you will have more margin.
  • Splice a loop into the end of the trim line to attach to QR (assuming this is attachment method). I use a locking brummell splice with a 40 times diameter bury. Lots of good info on splicing on kite forum - do a search if you need it. Lots of for and against opinions using locking brummell - I've had no issues in 4mm dyneema
  • Pull end down thru the PU and attach it to the QR (just for measurement purposes). You need to then slide on the old cleat, if you are reusing it, or slide on the new cleat if you are using an aftermarket. I've always used the Sea-Dog AeroBase with C11 Mk2 Clamcleat. Measure about 2.5 cm above the cleat and put a mark on the line. This is where you will splice in the long line that goes up thru the swivel and down to the slider. You need this extra length because when you bury the long line it will shorten the trim line so that it is at or just below the top of the cleat
  • Take the trim line apart from the clam cleat, PU tube and QR
  • Splice the long line in at the mark you made on the trim line. I use a locking brummell splice with a 40 diameter bury.
  • Loosely attach the cleat right below the splice and pull the end of the trim line down thru the PU and attach to the QR. Note when using the Sea Dog cleat I've gone without the PU tube and had no issues.
  • While the QR is apart, this is a good time to attach the extension to the flag-out line[ at the QR
  • Attach the cleat down onto the top of the PU tube (or at the splice if you've removed the PU tube)
  • Run the long line up thru swivel and attach the slider using a larks head knot. This attachment locks the loop on top of itself and makes for a more secure attachment
  • 4mm dyneema is hard to hang onto for a trim line. The trick is to take either a long piece of skinny bunny cord, or another piece of dyneema to run back thru the middle of the trim line and make it thicker. Or you can just double it back on itself and then you will have a loop at the end for a handle.
  • Put a figure 8 knot about 20 cm from the end of the trim line to stop it running thru the cleat, so you have enough to grab.


I've probably forgotten something along the way here - but hopefully its complete enough that you can figure that out! Others will probably weigh in and point out a better way to do some of this - thats the great thing about this forum!

Good luck with it - it really isn't that hard to do, just be prepared to have to do a bit of it over maybe. At least that was my experience.
These users thanked the author knot_moving for the post:
JimmyRyder (Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:58 pm)
Rating: 8.33%

User avatar
JimmyRyder
Rare Poster
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:36 am
Kiting since: 2012
Weight: 220
Local Beach: Atlanta - GA
Ocean Side - GA, SC, NC
Tampa - FL
Favorite Beaches: Tampa - USA
Cape Hatteras - USA
Charleston - USA
Tarifa - Spain
Lefkada - Greece
Rhodos - Greece
Gokceada - Turkey
Urla - Turkey
Alacati - Turkey
Cesme - Turkey
Soma Bay - Egypt
Elgouna - Egypt
Marsala - Italy
Mamaia - Romania
Sulina - Romania
Style: FreeRide; Snowkiting;
Gear: 2020 North - REACH - 10m
2020 Liquid Force - NV - 13.5m
2019 Liquid Force - SOLO - 15.5m

2020 Liquid Force - ABSOLUTE - 140cm
2020 Liquid Force - POD 4'4 - HydroBoard
2020 Liquid Force - IMPULSE - Hydrofoil
2020 Liquid Force - MESSENGER - Surfboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Atlanta / Tampa
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby JimmyRyder » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:10 pm

Needless to say I just lost you at certain point, I am fairly decent at technical stuff but definitely not as technical as you are. :D

I will try to follow your instruction up to wherever point I can, but I would definitely need some help at one point, so if you don't mind I would like to touch base with you privately so I won't clutter this forum, maybe best would be on FB messenger.

Please let me know if you're OK with that?

Thanks,
Jimmy
These users thanked the author JimmyRyder for the post:
knot_moving (Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:01 am)
Rating: 8.33%

Herman
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:09 pm
Style: My Own.
Gear: SLE, foils and C kites, TTs, Directionals, Landboards, Buggy.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby Herman » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:16 pm

In the navigator Is the trim strap made up from the a continuation of the centre line or are there separate lines joined at the cleat as in the ozone race bar (if memory serves).

If it is one single line it may be better to splice a loop as a connection at the cleat for your trim system to make it modular and cheaper to maintain.
A close up picture of the cleat may help people provide suggestion on how best to extend etc

If you want a covered line for handling and cleating get one with a hollow core inner so you can splice the loop connection.
Last edited by Herman on Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
These users thanked the author Herman for the post:
JimmyRyder (Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:21 am)
Rating: 8.33%

Herman
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:09 pm
Style: My Own.
Gear: SLE, foils and C kites, TTs, Directionals, Landboards, Buggy.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 173 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby Herman » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:53 pm

Or just buy the ozone:
Attachments
Screenshot_2020-09-08-20-36-26.png
These users thanked the author Herman for the post:
JimmyRyder (Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:19 am)
Rating: 8.33%

alford
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:53 pm
Gear: all brands
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 32 times
Been thanked: 26 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby alford » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:29 am

More pictures, less words = a better response through better understanding
These users thanked the author alford for the post:
JimmyRyder (Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:37 am)
Rating: 8.33%

knot_moving
Frequent Poster
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:13 am
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: kites: OR Flites & Cabrinha Velocity
Underground FLX 138, Slingshot foil, Mako Duke, Jimmy Lewis Flight Deck
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: NW Florida
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby knot_moving » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:00 am

alford wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:29 am
More pictures, less words = a better response through better understanding
yes your surely right! My current bar is a 3:1 so I can't take pics of that one. I have all the pieces to build up a new bar - just trying to decide on whether to use the click-click connector or the infexion connector...

Anyway I will do a poor drawing and upload that.
These users thanked the author knot_moving for the post:
JimmyRyder (Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:37 am)
Rating: 8.33%

knot_moving
Frequent Poster
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:13 am
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: kites: OR Flites & Cabrinha Velocity
Underground FLX 138, Slingshot foil, Mako Duke, Jimmy Lewis Flight Deck
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: NW Florida
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby knot_moving » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:07 am

JimmyRyder wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:10 pm
Needless to say I just lost you at certain point, I am fairly decent at technical stuff but definitely not as technical as you are. :D

I will try to follow your instruction up to wherever point I can, but I would definitely need some help at one point, so if you don't mind I would like to touch base with you privately so I won't clutter this forum, maybe best would be on FB messenger.

Please let me know if you're OK with that?

Thanks,
Jimmy
Herman has good recommendations - I built one bar with a center-line that ended in a loop just above the cleat. Then both the lines were attached to the loop. I tried using a line with a cover and braided core for the combined center line and trim line. Getting the cover finished nicely was too hard for me and it was interfering with my QR, so I went back to just single braid for the center-line.

Yes you can PM me if you prefer - I am not really on Facebook except very occasionally so FB messenger isn't a great idea. You can just PM me here. No one will mind you asking questions on here tho & you will get other good suggestions. As I said - I will upload a few bad drawings to show what I mean.

Just go slow and try it out with string or old kite line to see how the 4:1 works and what sort of lengths you need.
These users thanked the author knot_moving for the post:
JimmyRyder (Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:16 am)
Rating: 8.33%

knot_moving
Frequent Poster
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:13 am
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: kites: OR Flites & Cabrinha Velocity
Underground FLX 138, Slingshot foil, Mako Duke, Jimmy Lewis Flight Deck
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: NW Florida
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby knot_moving » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:16 am

Here is a drawing of original and the 4:1
Attachments
395A50B4-849B-46DC-8BC6-8D1BADE9A77F.jpeg
395A50B4-849B-46DC-8BC6-8D1BADE9A77F.jpeg (81.14 KiB) Viewed 251 times
These users thanked the author knot_moving for the post:
JimmyRyder (Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:17 am)
Rating: 8.33%

User avatar
JimmyRyder
Rare Poster
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:36 am
Kiting since: 2012
Weight: 220
Local Beach: Atlanta - GA
Ocean Side - GA, SC, NC
Tampa - FL
Favorite Beaches: Tampa - USA
Cape Hatteras - USA
Charleston - USA
Tarifa - Spain
Lefkada - Greece
Rhodos - Greece
Gokceada - Turkey
Urla - Turkey
Alacati - Turkey
Cesme - Turkey
Soma Bay - Egypt
Elgouna - Egypt
Marsala - Italy
Mamaia - Romania
Sulina - Romania
Style: FreeRide; Snowkiting;
Gear: 2020 North - REACH - 10m
2020 Liquid Force - NV - 13.5m
2019 Liquid Force - SOLO - 15.5m

2020 Liquid Force - ABSOLUTE - 140cm
2020 Liquid Force - POD 4'4 - HydroBoard
2020 Liquid Force - IMPULSE - Hydrofoil
2020 Liquid Force - MESSENGER - Surfboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Atlanta / Tampa
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby JimmyRyder » Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:27 am

Hello Herman,
- the Navigator Depower Line is going inside the tube and comes out on top of the Cleat ending with a LOOP.
- the Trimming Line (and in near future the Longer Line that goes to the Swivel) connects on this LOOP.

Herman wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:16 pm
In the navigator Is the trim strap made up from the a continuation of the centre line or are there separate lines joined at the cleat as in the ozone race bar (if memory serves).

If it is one single line it may be better to splice a loop as a connection at the cleat for your trim system to make it modular and cheaper to maintain.
A close up picture of the cleat may help people provide suggestion on how best to extend etc

If you want a covered line for handling and cleating get one with a hollow core inner so you can splice the loop connection.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Azzieo, leepasty, Tomlutz, xoen and 14 guests