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How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

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JimmyRyder
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby JimmyRyder » Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:23 pm

I just got back from Europe and had the chance to try there a LEY kite specifically made for hydrofoiling called "Kauper" and intend to order me one of those in 9m size.
Honestly I didn't like the bar Kauper comes with,... but I've seen lots of people riding the carbon bars like "Groove" and "SK" with this kite but the best feeling I had was with the custom carbon 4:1 system some local guys had.
Then I remembered how easy was the trimming on
Core Sensor bar (also a 4:1 system).
So that was kind of the main reason I wanted to build a foiling designated bar that works in the 4:1 version.
Come to think of it now,... it just occurred to me that I didn't think about the
SAFETY RELEASE (FlagOut) how that works on the 4:1 system.
Would that be also a 100% Depower that remains on one front line?!

Or would be something like less then
100% depower with a different flagout (as I think of it now, Core has both front line flagout - which I don't know if it's 100% or less). :?:

I've never seen the 3:1 system yet but if you say you like that better please share here on in private few pics, specs and info about it,... maybe I switch to that 3:1 myself if that's better !!!
:D

Thanks again for the info and your help with this, it's really an awesome help given that at the beginning I had just a general idea and now I'm studying spicing and plan on going at West Marine to get me some tools and other goodies there. :D
Herman wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:09 pm
If I wanted something like that made up I would go to a sail maker or a kite repair shop. That would be prohibitively expensive to me. Why not see if you can buy a kit as spares, but still making it yourself would be way cheaper if you don’t count the cost of research.

To me it seems an easy thing to do but I have been doing this sort of stuff longer than I care to remember, Using hollow core is particularly easy in 4mm and so it is a good place to start and the tooling required is rudimentary. Study the web site I suggested get a dyneema off cut from eBay and have a play. You might surprise yourself.

It also seems a bit weird that you need this. Unless you’re advanced it seems strange that you are using kites that should need this setup or are you flying in very gusty conditions.
Yes you do need trim for big kites but I rarely use it more than 2 or 3 times a session. I have however, extended the handle length on a few bars to make it easier to pull the Depower in sudden squalls.

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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby Herman » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:00 pm

If you are using the floating single pulley you will be keeping the top bracket the same and the flagging method will be unaltered. If you go for a double pulley, as in the inflexion thread, attached to the same top bracket your flagging method will also be the same.

Looking at pictures of your bar I would go for the single floating pulley option which means you will have to extend the rear leaders as it is not a block to block system (top bracket never reaches the cleat). The top bracket looks to be worth keeping! The lower flag line will also have to be extended. Are you sure all this is worth it? You will certainly learn a lot doing this.
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JimmyRyder
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby JimmyRyder » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:54 pm

Thanks Herman,

I'm thinking since there are lots of 4:1 users especially into the Racing community as well as the Foil community around the world, not to mention the regular brands like Core and others which uses the 4:1 system as standard on all their bars.

To me doing this custom bar it adds to the learning curve on the kiting area beside the riding part but also is worth the effort because:
- I don't have to change the stance so much when I'm reaching for trimming
- I don't have to pull too hard in order to trim as it happens sometimes now

Overall I just like to try this setting since I already have 3 regular bars (LFK Mission Control bar, Airush Cleat bar and North Navigator bar) and would like to benchmark them against the 4:1 setup. :D

Herman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:00 pm
If you are using the floating single pulley you will be keeping the top bracket the same and the flagging method will be unaltered. If you go for a double pulley, as in the inflexion thread, attached to the same top bracket your flagging method will also be the same.

Looking at pictures of your bar I would go for the single floating pulley option which means you will have to extend the rear leaders as it is not a block to block system (top bracket never reaches the cleat). The top bracket looks to be worth keeping! The lower flag line will also have to be extended. Are you sure all this is worth it? You will certainly learn a lot doing this.

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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby Herman » Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:50 pm

Sounds like a plan, and it will certainly allow smooth trimming. There is loads of excess strength available with dyneema for this application and so some judgement can be used with length of bury etc particularly as loops are usually part of a reef/handshake knot or larkshead. Look at how your other bars are spliced and stitched. Good luck with your project,
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby knot_moving » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:52 pm

Herman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:35 am
This is just a personal rant and not a dig at knot_moving as he has provided very good information.

Generally speaking when people show splicing they show what I think is called the McDonald Brummell splice which is useful where you don't have both ends. Imho it is very rarely needed in kiting as you generally have both ends available. An ordinary Brummell even if you have to pass a spliced loop is less torturous on the fibres than inverting and reinverting the line through itself imho. Just don't rip the line through and cause heat if you are passing a full flying length.

The McDonald is a good party piece etc. Personal rant over - please ignore!!!!

PS take a look at the infexion thread if you want to see another alternative layout for a multi part trimmer, it uses a double pulley system that can pull down block to block (shorter rear leaders required!).
Maybe a personal rant but good advice again from Herman!

I actually didn’t pay attention to the bookmark I pasted in there - it just said “Brummell”. I use both - just depends on how much I have to take apart to get to the other end.

Y’all have me motivated to start building another bar and I am gonna try to splice together the very sweet looking front line connector and flag out that Evan showed over in the infexion thread - interlocked loops and all 👍😀
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AndersP
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby AndersP » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:54 am

Here is a nice little cleat for a 3-1 or 4-1 depower solution.
It allows you to have a compact system and still much depower length. I prefer 3-1 to avoid the superlong rope flapping around on 4-1 systems
Attachments
Screenshot_20200912-081128_Chrome.jpg
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby nixmatters » Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:02 pm

No time to read all the above, so please excuse me if this has been mentioned already.

Just buy the Cabrinha Trimlite Extension Kit and install it on your Navigator bar.
It looks that Adventure Sports don't have it in stock, but plenty of the dealers do.

The only thing you may need to adjust is the length of the bungee flagging line, but I saw that someone posted on 'how to splice', so I'm skipping this point.

The North cleat is smaller (for thinner rope) than the Cabrinha one, so I checked if the Cab depower line fits well - it does, see below.

Attachments
North cleat Cab depower line.jpg
Screenshot_20200912_123118.jpg
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JimmyRyder
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby JimmyRyder » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:59 pm

Wow - your idea and the movie you just sent simplify things to the minimum requirements needed for an entry-level situation like mine !!!

Our other friends ideas and infos are great for down the line when I'm getting good at this (like splicing, etc) but the fastest config right now is with this Cab conversion kit !!!

Thanks again my friend !!!
:D

nixmatters wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 12:02 pm
No time to read all the above, so please excuse me if this has been mentioned already.

Just buy the Cabrinha Trimlite Extension Kit and install it on your Navigator bar.
It looks that Adventure Sports don't have it in stock, but plenty of the dealers do.

The only thing you may need to adjust is the length of the bungee flagging line, but I saw that someone posted on 'how to splice', so I'm skipping this point.

The North cleat is smaller (for thinner rope) than the Cabrinha one, so I checked if the Cab depower line fits well - it does, see below.

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Herman
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby Herman » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:33 pm

But I said you could probably get a kit, and anyway this thread is titled "How to make............., I think nixmatters post should be deleted. Joking aside this looks spot on for the op's needs. I liked AndersP contribution as well as this is the neatest way I have seen of incorporating a block with the cleat (not needed for the floating pulley solution but may be good for the future).

Posts don't come more helpful than the one from nixmatters!!
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JimmyRyder
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Posts: 44
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:36 am
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Weight: 220
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Cape Hatteras - USA
Charleston - USA
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Rhodos - Greece
Gokceada - Turkey
Urla - Turkey
Alacati - Turkey
Cesme - Turkey
Soma Bay - Egypt
Elgouna - Egypt
Marsala - Italy
Mamaia - Romania
Sulina - Romania
Style: FreeRide; Snowkiting;
Gear: 2020 North - REACH - 10m
2020 Liquid Force - NV - 13.5m
2019 Liquid Force - SOLO - 15.5m

2020 Liquid Force - ABSOLUTE - 140cm
2020 Liquid Force - POD 4'4 - HydroBoard
2020 Liquid Force - IMPULSE - Hydrofoil
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Re: How to make 4:1 Trim System on 2020 North Navigator Bar

Postby JimmyRyder » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:43 pm

"Knot_moving" it sounds to me that I'm not the only "knot-case" :D in here that wants to build a bar to benchmark it to the brand bars :D :D :D

Anyway once you build it please do post info and pix here so we can learn from each other :)

We may start a curent here to "build-own-bars" rather then pay 600-700 bucks on them.
:D :D :D

knot_moving wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:52 pm
Herman wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:35 am
This is just a personal rant and not a dig at knot_moving as he has provided very good information.

Generally speaking when people show splicing they show what I think is called the McDonald Brummell splice which is useful where you don't have both ends. Imho it is very rarely needed in kiting as you generally have both ends available. An ordinary Brummell even if you have to pass a spliced loop is less torturous on the fibres than inverting and reinverting the line through itself imho. Just don't rip the line through and cause heat if you are passing a full flying length.

The McDonald is a good party piece etc. Personal rant over - please ignore!!!!

PS take a look at the infexion thread if you want to see another alternative layout for a multi part trimmer, it uses a double pulley system that can pull down block to block (shorter rear leaders required!).
Maybe a personal rant but good advice again from Herman!

I actually didn’t pay attention to the bookmark I pasted in there - it just said “Brummell”. I use both - just depends on how much I have to take apart to get to the other end.

Y’all have me motivated to start building another bar and I am gonna try to splice together the very sweet looking front line connector and flag out that Evan showed over in the infexion thread - interlocked loops and all 👍😀


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