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heli loop not providing lift

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edt
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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby edt » Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:36 pm

It's just a bit odd the way you are explaining it. The energy we get to boost comes from the difference in speed of the air particles and the kiter. I think it's unnecessary to talk about starting from the ground or water. Just look at the particles of air and the kiter. You can posit an initial condition where a kiter is 1 meter off the ground and the difference in speed between him and the air is 20 knots. Now maybe he started jumping from the water. Or maybe he dropped off a big cliff and pushed the bar out to build up speed on the way down. It doesn't matter how he started you can posit the initial conditions of him starting 1 meter off the ground and it doesn't matter what he did before he got there. If you know the difference between the vectors of the kiter and wind you can determine how much higher he can go.

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:22 pm

I know it is difficult for many to understand, and I do not explain it well... :wink:

You know exactly how it works edt, and I was raised with gliding and have flown gliders all my life, apart from my experience in aero and dynamics in general, also work wise, so comes natural to me.

Not so easy for most, as the thought that the wind is energy is difficult to abandon.

Let's take another example :

You ride on a skateboard with the exact same speed as you had kitesurfing on the water through the wind.

If there is no wind at all (or even a vacuum), and you jump with the skateboard on a really small low ramp, you will be able to jump just as high as with your kiteboard.

And in this situation noone will say you harvest energy from the wind, right?

It is exactly the same that happens, you convert energy by changing direction, you don't add any energy.

Whether you use the air or a ramp to redirect, makes no difference :)

Same height possible, if we don't look at the loss of course.

Sorry we are off topic now...

8) Peter

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby edt » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:35 am

Let's just stop here and get back to heli loops ;-)

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby knotwindy » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:31 am

Ok, as has been said before, loops are counter-intuitive. For most of your kiting time up until the loop if you pull the bar harder the kite moves faster and pulls harder. For heli-loops, loops that go overhead through 12:00, the harder you pull the bar the faster and tighter the loop and the less pull you get. A wider slower loop pulls harder, gives more lift for a slightly longer time at the landing if you time it right. IMO.
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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby TheJoe » Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:34 am

So a heliloop will not give you lift by itself. You would need an increase in wind over the foil while looping to actually lift you up. The lift people talk about on a heliloop is not actually lifting you up but slowing down your decent.

So most kites are pretty inefficient. The reason is shape and size. If you had a high aspect kite that was super efficient then you would be able to fly on small thermals and up drafts. Oh yeah we have those they are called paragliders :P. But what Peter is talking about is correct to our kites. They are made for more grunt in our terms to let us stay up on a plane on water. So when we jump we are artificially increasing the lift by increasing the speed of the kite through the air while fighting against it. It's not like a paraglider will keep you up forever unless you have the wind for it. All gliders fall back to earth it's just a matter of what your glide ratio is.

As far as heliloops go it has a lot to do with timing to get the best "lift" out it. All so if you pull it during a lull in the wind you will still get dropped. Kite shape and size plus riders weight will play a part in how well it works. All so wind speed plays a bit in how much lift you will get but that should be obvious.
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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby zloilyoha » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:50 am

blackswan wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 7:46 pm
I have been practicing my heli loops recently but consistently have a problem where I pull the loop, but it does not provide much/any lift. When I land a jump without a heli loop, I get much softer landings (by the normal method of redirecting kite across 12 as I land).

Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I think I am doing what all the tutorials say, basically send a (forward hand) loop as you are coming in to land and ride downwind. Usually when I jump I keep the kite on the opposite side of the window slightly so I can loop it through 12 while landing. The loops generally pull me slightly downwind and in the other direction, so I end up riding away the opposite direction that I started.

I am wondering if it might be my kite stalling, or bad technique? I have definitely felt some stall/loss of power when pulling loops before. I was also not jumping that high, maybe 5-8m, but I was jumping high enough that the kite ended up behind me during the descent.
what the kite you are talking about?

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby andylc » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:25 am

Just reading that again what you’re basically describing is a jump with downloop transition? Which basically means you’re starting the loop too late.

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby blackswan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:11 pm

zloilyoha wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:50 am
what the kite you are talking about?
I was using a 12m switchblade. I had another session since the first post, and I THINK the answer is: jump higher, start the loop sooner (maybe when half way descended), trim the bar for less power so it doesn't stall as much. I suppose it makes sense that the bigger the kite, the sooner you need to start the loop as it will turn slower. I still haven't reached the point where a heli-loop provides softer landing than a well-timed redirection of the kite without loop, but hopefully I will get there with a bit more practice.

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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby Herman » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:18 pm

If you are landing nicely from your normal redirect I have two suggested exercises that might help you get a feel for the tension you can develop from your switchblade.

Firstly do some heliloop water starts when just powered. Start with the kite in the back of the window, do your downloop heliloop while laying back watching the kite. Be prepared to point the board at the kite if it develops lots of power. Not flown a Switchblade for some time but I would expect for typical intermediate sheeting skills that it to generate decent tension crossing the window and turning back but then pivot through the last 90 without much power as it goes back through the zenith ready to dive into the front of the window.

Secondly do some jumping where you land pointing well off the wind with virtually a normal send but with the intention of completing a heliloop after the landing. As you get a feel for it you can then aim to develop the timing required for touching down at the point where you are developing most upward tension. Bear in mind this is coming from an old guy trying to develop the same skills and so I would be interested to know if you find this useful.
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Re: heli loop not providing lift

Postby knotwindy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:49 pm

If you get a softer landing with a ‘regular’ send, do the same exact thing except;
Send the kite a bit further back when you jump, then pull with the front hand a bit sooner, a bit harder and hold it longer. You’ll figure it out pretty quickly. And maybe try to pull it about 2-3 meters off the water, you don’t have to complete the loop to get a softer landing to learn.


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