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Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

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Pierrot
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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby Pierrot » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:36 pm

ichabod wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:42 pm
Pierrot wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:36 pm
I have Neo 5m 2018. It flies just fine.
For sure you can’t fly it like a 10m... but i have used it In strong wind where it is pretty much plug and play... and on foil in « light wind » (~20knt) where you need to fly it more carefully not to backstall it.

Check the bridles maybe...
That's really interesting, so you've noticed no backstall even at full sheet? Both kites are barely used so unlikely to be stretched or damaged.. a systematic manufacturing defect also seems unlikely. We've tried them on both front bridle settings - i.e the yellow/black/blue adjustment. I'm not sure what else to check on the bridles other than to try and measure all parts of them accurately and compare to another kite.

Out of interest, what bar are you using? The only other variable that comes to mind is the split point. hard to believe it would have such a drastic effect on a small kite though.
I’m using a click bar (2019?). But 1 year ago i removed the split point on my click bar so it now has a low V. Instead of the usual Y split. It did not make much difference... for my 10-7-5 neo.

Don’t get me wrong. If you fully sheet the 5m and hang-on to the bar in its lower wind range it will backstall (same for the 7). But this is the same with most of the small kites i have used foiling at the bottom of their wind range.
So I for sure adapt the way I fly a small kite vs a larger kite. The 5m is a lot of fun on foil, surf and even TT when the wind is strong.

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby Pierrot » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:54 pm

ichabod wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:19 am
... Basically the kite back stalls horrendously if sheeted more than about half way in. Strangely even with a lot of depower trim it still occurs at about 2/3 full sheeted in. .
I would need to check what is the « balance point » when flying the 5m. You mention sheeted halfway is the tipping point for you... i guess I adjust based on the feeling of the kite, so don’t really pay attention, but i would not expect the kite to fly well fully sheeted. I usually depower 1 or 2 « clicks » in light wind.
What is weird is that you are mentioning that even with lots of depower you still have the issue...

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby ichabod » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:59 pm

Yes, the other day I was flying it in about 25->30 knots. Amazingly, with about 30cm depower on the trim I still had to be careful not to stall it. Pulling the bar in beyond the final 1/3 of the throw would drop it back like a stone even if just cruising at normal power levels.. not hauling hard on the bar or anything.

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:03 pm

Does the kite fly more "right" if you put longer rearline pigtails at the kite?

If so, it is simply the front/rear bridles which are not tuned well in respect to each other on this very size, quite normal for some sizes to be like that, have seen it with many brands.

No big deal, just keep these longer pigtails on the 5 m2, and you can use any bar now :thumb:

If the kite can not steer any longer, rear lines too slack, there might be something completely wrong with the kite - but I doubt this i the case, should be the first one I have seen at least :wink:

Yes, small kites should oversheet and stall badly, maybe fly backwards, if bar is pulled fully - thats how I like it too, and they got a narrow sheeting range, you want the bar a bit away from you, if on a hydrofoil or surfboard.

If for TT (I doubt it, very few use 4 and 5 for TTs), or for beginners, they should be trimmed down so they can not backstall, except for in low winds.

Make longer rearlines (bridles) up at the kite, till default trim fits with default depower setting on the adjuster, if the kite works fine now, thats perfect and all there is to it :naughty:

I do this all the time, on many kites (many brands), but usually the other way (shorten rear bridles), I want all kites to backstall a lot, before the bar is pulled close, so I can ride with bar far out for bottom turns both waveboards and foilboards, without having loose rearlines :rollgrin:
Also to make sure I can utilize the full range of any kite, and fly it backwards when desired.

8) Peter

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby purdyd » Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:32 pm

Boy sure sounds like problem with the kite. Is it new? I’d return it.

You might check the bridle line lengths, they should be printed on the tags on each segment.

I had the 2018 neo 6m and at 25 knots there was no backstall.

I thought the neo liked having equal line lengths or even a click more depowered.

If you take a click bar and remove the vee, it makes the front lines slightly longer.

I hope you get it sorted out,

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby Herman » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:02 pm

It sounds like you have lost confidence in the kite, maybe convincing yourself that trimming makes no difference etc. I have been in enough pilot debriefs to know that perception can become skewed when confidence is lost.

Do something radical. If you want to sort this yourself add a rear pig extension with knots to cover the 10 to 30cm Then trial it to see where it flys best. (Start short and increase the extension used.) I rarely buy new kites and I have to do this sort of thing a lot. I have also had to do it with new kites. As it is a small kite have an assistant for the multiple landings that will be required in a decent wind. Find the point where the rears go slack, then find the point of backstall and adjust the pigtails to have the sheeting range where you want it. Probably not worth considering other faults until you have done this sort of trial.

At 210 lbs I don’t think 25-30knts is that windy for a 5m unless you are hydrofoiling. For my small kites I have a bar without trim. I have two knots on the rear pigs. One for my normal backstall point and one longer one for when I wish to fly with minimal backstall.
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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:06 pm

There is most likely nothing wrong with the kite, try using longer rear line pigtails and let's hear how it works out :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby Dan-at-Duotone » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:40 pm

A. Lowering the "V" point will increase the length of the front lines relative to the back lines which can lead to stalling, but it is a slight difference, no more than an inch or two, easily tuned out by a click of depower. This does not sound like what you're dealing with

B. If this has been happening since day one I'd check the bridles. Can you send me photos of each bridle line and/or let me know what writing is on each label on each bridle line? Wondering if the factory screwed up and put a 6m bridle on a 5m kite or something like that. I've not seen the factory put the wrong bridle on a kite, but I've never heard this complaint on a Neo before so I'm mystified on what else it could be.

Feel free to PM me with details. Happy to try to troubleshoot this for you...

-Dan

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby Herman » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:03 pm

Bear in mind the OP is talking about 2 kites with the same quirk, but obviously this does not rule out the wrong bridle being fitted to both.

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Re: Neo 2018 5m back stalling badly

Postby iriejohn » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:09 pm

Because a small kite typically has a far smaller chord than a large kite you normally won't sheet a small kite in the same way as you would a large kite.

This is because the sheeting range of movement used on a large kite will when used on a small kite make it easier to increase the angle of attack beyond the stall point.


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