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dirk8037
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Eco

Postby dirk8037 » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi all,

just the other day I clicked over a link that lead me to Duotone Marketing Blah onsome suppaduppah eco kite bag that will make us all feel well - and it instantly made me puke.

.. about different things.

The brand it self I do not care for (only a fanboy of very very few brands) and I have to admit that despite all you have to give them credit to do that.
Although the loudness, extend and exageration kind of fits to a brand that is in my eye a fair bit off the good quality and sustainable path. But anyway...

What really struck me that it took 20Y, to bring out a fucking lousy kite bag.
Thats it, after all that time JUST A CHEAP BAG.

During that time I read frequently forums for surfing and Kiteboarding and I can not remember ONE SINGLE POST that said - I want to have Info on the working situation in the shops, how waste is treated etc.
I did not neither - just to make that clear.
And its highly embarresing - if i think about it right now.

And its not only to blame the industry. They are mostly cheap whores, driven by saturated markets and competition.

We and the likes (SUP/WIndsurf/Surf) always pretend we do a nature sport and therefore are the good ones - which makes long drives and flights, new release frenzyness etc acceptable.
But its not.

Knowing how hard it is to get T Shirts or Jeans that are eco and fair traide , I am not so naive to believe that there will be full compostable boards and fully recycle kites. But if you look around there are very few attempts. Companies like Arcteryx, one of the self proclaimed avantgard of nature sports, are for years highly reluctant in using the better chemicals.
Vaude seems one of the few consequent acting.
Cold was praised for theire packaging.
The ever thriving Patagonia - does it comly to any fair trade lable rules - gotta check

So all the silent participating companies here, come out!
Show what you have got!

Dirk
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StellaBlu
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Re: Eco

Postby StellaBlu » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:41 pm

I agree with your sentiments (I think), but the problem is that manufacturing sustainably, certifying sustainability / fair trade, and sustainability R&D costs a lot of money. Retail margins are already razor thin (I don't know what they are for kite gear, but I can't imagine it is very good) and while consumers say they want "sustainability" most aren't willing to pay for it. What Duotone has announced is a very small gesture, but its a step in the right direction and you should applaud them for that. If people buy their gear because they are showing some commitment to sustainability, we can hope that (A) they will invest more money to R&D and make a more material impact in this regard and (B) more companies will follow suit and start implementing sustainability measures / investing in their own R&D.

Bashing on Patagonia and Arcteryx isn't productive. Those companies are WAY ahead of the curve in terms of sustainability.

Your purchase is a statement. Make your purchases speak to your values.
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Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:59 pm

StellaBlu wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 8:41 pm
Bashing on Patagonia and Arcteryx isn't productive. Those companies are WAY ahead of the curve in terms of sustainability.
I don't think dirk8037 is bashing COREporations. Dirk is bashing the posers (consumers) that represent the demand for products that are supposedly "environmentally friendly", which is being supplied by those COREporations. There is a lot of money to be made by supplying the consumers need to feel better about their environmental impact.

But the real story behind this is about the ACTUAL environmental impact of the products sold as environmentally friendly. Often times, that impact is greater than a product which cannot carry a label of "recycled" or "sustainable".

But the desire to feel good virulently shows itself as defending a policy which the math shows is the opposite of what it is sold as.

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Re: Eco

Postby StellaBlu » Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:14 pm

I think we are agreeing with eachother.

The practice of faking a commitment to sustainability to appeal to consumers is called "Greenwashing", but I don't think Duotone using recycled materials for bags fits that definition.

I agree with your general sentiments though. Which is why companies like Patagonia who doesn't constantly release new product and force obsolescence, creates product that is well made and doesn't fall apart, offers to repair product, offers end-of-life recycling, etc.... is ACTUALLY creating an environmental impact, regardless of certifications etc....

Avoiding unnecessary consumption is the single biggest thing you can do to reduce your footprint. Buy what you need.

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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:06 pm

StellaBlu wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:14 pm
The practice of faking a commitment to sustainability to appeal to consumers is called "Greenwashing", but I don't think Duotone using recycled materials for bags fits that definition.
Greenwashing is intentional.

But what would you call the recycling efforts of the past 30 years, which saw our oceans filled with those products supposedly on their way to second and third world countries for recycling?

What would you call fluorescent light bulb mandates that gave virtually no consideration to the Mercury that would be dumped in our yards, and along our streets, washing into the rivers, and then eventually into the ocean.?

What would you call the outsourcing of industrial production to second and third world countries where there are no environmental restrictions, thus those products are made in a way which is many times more environmentally destructive than if they would have been produced in the West?

Greenwashing is the small time, nearly victimless crime, in comparison to supposedly environmentally responsible policy set by inept governments held hostage by supposedly "environmentalist" groups.

StellaBlu
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Re: Eco

Postby StellaBlu » Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:22 pm

Greenwashing is definitely intentional -- I never said anything to the contrary.

Regarding the other points... I would call those economics. The average consumer is more focused on dollar price than the broader implications of their consumption. As a result, there is a race to the bottom in terms of how to produce at the absolute lowest dollar cost. Either consumer habits change to prioritize environmental, social and other factors over cost (unlikely), or we need additional government regulation.

Let's get back on topic. What should Duotone or other kite manufactures do to actually reduce their footprint? Would you pay more for a more sustainable product? At least I think thats the point of this conversation....

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Re: Eco

Postby BayAreaKite » Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:23 am

The first thing these brands should do is stop releasing a new product every year, which is only slightly modified from the previous year. There is so much waste generated in developing new products, and releasing a new one simply causes the older version to lose value. I don't understand why these kite companies race each other every year to come out with new gear, which is simply a new color or slightly different profile. You cannot innovate on material and process in one years time. This is why car companies take 6-8 years before releasing new models, and aerospace is more like 10-12. Even Apple takes 2 years to really change the iPhone, with the 1-year updates simply being small bumps in performance. If kite, ski, bicycle brands shifted to longer product lifecycles, consumers would benefit with real technology advancements and reduced waste.

Not to promote my efforts to improve the sustainability in kiting, but I launched http://www.projectcedrus.com around recycled aerospace composites and made every effort in the design and manufacturing process to eliminate waste. It is made locally, it was sized and designed digitally (no wasted testing and broken masts), and the mast itself uses 15 plies of carbon instead of 80+ like the solid carbon masts, a total waste. The software used to design the mast is $15,000/year, so most kite companies will not do this. But I am fortunate to use the software on other projects. Sadly these kite brands invest in sales and marketing, NOT in real technology.

We as consumers also have a responsibility to not buy garbage! If it's not a lot better than what you currently have, don't buy it. companies will keep making garbage if we consumers continue buy it. Use what you have, take care of it, and prevent excess consumption.
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Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:48 pm

StellaBlu wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:22 pm
.... Either consumer habits change to prioritize environmental, social and other factors over cost (unlikely), or we need additional government regulation.

Let's get back on topic. What should Duotone or other kite manufactures do to actually reduce their footprint? Would you pay more for a more sustainable product? At least I think thats the point of this conversation....
Great lead in! Thanks.

Poorly thought out western government regulations are directly responsible for the global pollution problem being at least three times what it would have been had those regulations not been put in place. Was the clean up of the west worth polluting the 2nd and 3rd world with 3 times the pollution as would have been produced in the west without those regulations? Is it a good thing that this pollution was dumped in the 2nd and 3rd without any efforts to contain it? Is it fair for those people in the 2nd and 3rd world to live in the waste created there so that we could enjoy a cheaper product on the west's clean beaches, land, waters, and air?

If a company like Duotone actually wants to do something environmentally friendly, they should start making those products in the West. And not just the easy products, but the hard ones that have some serious considerations for waste disposal under Western environmental regulations. Actual environmental responsibility gives consideration to the planet, not just one's own backyard. I am with the OP in being outraged at fake environmentalism for profit, or even the environmental stupidity/short sightedness that harms the environment more than actual ill intentions.

And the "cheap oil/energy" that drives this mess at unstoppable speeds of stupidity, is the "feel good" intentions of idiot consumers.

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Re: Eco

Postby ichabod » Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:33 pm

For sure everyone is barking up the wrong tree with 'sustainable' kites, bags etc. These products have a lifespan of 5 or 10 years so the impact is minimal regardless of how they are made. The things we need to worry about are disposable products which we use on a daily basis - or perhaps all of the flights we take for exotic kite holidays - not this bullshit greenwashing.

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Re: Eco

Postby Aberdovy kiter » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:25 pm

BayAreaKite wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:23 am
The first thing these brands should do is stop releasing a new product every year, which is only slightly modified from the previous year. There is so much waste generated in developing new products, and releasing a new one simply causes the older version to lose value. I don't understand why these kite companies race each other every year to come out with new gear, which is simply a new color or slightly different profile. You cannot innovate on material and process in one years time. This is why car companies take 6-8 years before releasing new models, and aerospace is more like 10-12. Even Apple takes 2 years to really change the iPhone, with the 1-year updates simply being small bumps in performance. If kite, ski, bicycle brands shifted to longer product lifecycles, consumers would benefit with real technology advancements and reduced waste.

Not to promote my efforts to improve the sustainability in kiting, but I launched http://www.projectcedrus.com around recycled aerospace composites and made every effort in the design and manufacturing process to eliminate waste. It is made locally, it was sized and designed digitally (no wasted testing and broken masts), and the mast itself uses 15 plies of carbon instead of 80+ like the solid carbon masts, a total waste. The software used to design the mast is $15,000/year, so most kite companies will not do this. But I am fortunate to use the software on other projects. Sadly these kite brands invest in sales and marketing, NOT in real technology.

We as consumers also have a responsibility to not buy garbage! If it's not a lot better than what you currently have, don't buy it. companies will keep making garbage if we consumers continue buy it. Use what you have, take care of it, and prevent excess consumption.
This is a very good point, as with all products what ever they are it is the responsibility of the end user to maximise the potential of that product, marketing has convinced us that we need the latest and greatest, social media and influencers are a hugely powerful tool that is very effective, most kitesurfing vids have some aspect of marketing built in, even when it's unintentional, we all aspire to be better, cooler whatever and the easiest way to achieve this is to believe the marketing...


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