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souspeed
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Re: Eco

Postby souspeed » Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 pm

Well, you can buy a cool pair of sunglasses, that help clean up the ocean.
I got mine already.

https://products.theoceancleanup.com/?g ... 3cQAvD_BwE

Image

Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:40 pm

:rollgrin:
souspeed wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 pm
Well, you can buy a cool pair of sunglasses, that help clean up the ocean.
I got mine already.

https://products.theoceancleanup.com/?g ... 3cQAvD_BwE

Image
Frickin great! Sort all of your various grades of plastic or drive to the store with a load and put your bottles in a machine for your refund. Trucks then come by and pick up these recyclables, which are transferred to a recycle center. Then these are moved around by heavy equipment, and then loaded onto trucks, and then a train. Then these recyclables make it to a port, where they are loaded onto a large cargo ship and sent halfway across the world to a second or third world country. Either on the way, or after actually having made it to that country, the recyclables are dumped into the ocean where they, over many many years, move to a rotating piece of the ocean where they collect at a great enough density to harvest. Then, some company comes by with another huge specially modified ocean garbage collector ship and picks up this trash. Then it is loaded on to another ship which takes it back to land where it is sorted once again. After all of this, these recyclables are supposedly turned to gold in the eyes of those claiming to love the environment.

Are you getting this? Maybe cut out the freaking middle man? Or would that cost us too many "money for nothing and your hippie chicks for free" jobs, and actually fix some of the problems? Is there seriously no one out there that takes the time to think these things through?

I honestly have to say that by no way, measure, lottery, or even gumball machine prize, could Humanity ever earn the title of "intelligent", on aggregate. We are freaking dumb!

knotwindy
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Re: Eco

Postby knotwindy » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:25 am

You sound surprised by that last part^

souspeed
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Re: Eco

Postby souspeed » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:48 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:40 pm
:rollgrin:
souspeed wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 pm
Well, you can buy a cool pair of sunglasses, that help clean up the ocean.
I got mine already.

https://products.theoceancleanup.com/?g ... 3cQAvD_BwE

Image
Frickin great! Sort all of your various grades of plastic or drive to the store with a load and put your bottles in a machine for your refund. Trucks then come by and pick up these recyclables, which are transferred to a recycle center. Then these are moved around by heavy equipment, and then loaded onto trucks, and then a train. Then these recyclables make it to a port, where they are loaded onto a large cargo ship and sent halfway across the world to a second or third world country. Either on the way, or after actually having made it to that country, the recyclables are dumped into the ocean where they, over many many years, move to a rotating piece of the ocean where they collect at a great enough density to harvest. Then, some company comes by with another huge specially modified ocean garbage collector ship and picks up this trash. Then it is loaded on to another ship which takes it back to land where it is sorted once again. After all of this, these recyclables are supposedly turned to gold in the eyes of those claiming to love the environment.

Are you getting this? Maybe cut out the freaking middle man? Or would that cost us too many "money for nothing and your hippie chicks for free" jobs, and actually fix some of the problems? Is there seriously no one out there that takes the time to think these things through?

I honestly have to say that by no way, measure, lottery, or even gumball machine prize, could Humanity ever earn the title of "intelligent", on aggregate. We are freaking dumb!
Yes, it makes sense to not let the plastic get into the ocean, but unfortunately the plastic is already there, so don't blame it on the ocean cleanup.

If you are really that concerned, then stop complaining on a forum about companies that actually do something, like a recycled kitbag, and start doing something about it.
E.g. by supporting this company that is busy doing the cleanup.

How can you be against a recycled kitebag, even when a big part of it is marketing. Its still better than a non-recycled kitebag.

Go cleanup a local beach and post pictures of that day on the forum instead, if you are so concerned.
Same goes for topicstarter Dirk.

Havre
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Re: Eco

Postby Havre » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:04 am

If you would like to have a meta-discussion - what is the alternative to recycling?

Obviously move to another planet. Assume that life will be lived "digitally" in the future (more than possible). Any other?

Not that I worry much for my life-time. but unless we move or we are OK with ending up with a planet which is not "suitable" for the human body to live on we clearly got to create a "closed loop" system - as there is only so much "raw material" available. When exhausted there is no way back. It could be 100 years from now or 1m years from now. I don't know, but it will happen.

As for "greenwashing" I would share the criticism. In the industry I work in you would find many of the world's best known brands of manufactured goods. I know of only one of those that have actually been willing to pay more to for example a sub supplier for providing a more "environmentally friendly" product (whatever that is defined as - at least they got their intentions right). Every single other company are speaking about how they will be carbon neutral etc., but they are currently not been willing to pay a cent more for getting anywhere. All about signaling.

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Re: Eco

Postby Pemba » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:46 am

souspeed wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:48 am
Matteo V wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:40 pm
:rollgrin:
souspeed wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 5:52 pm
Well, you can buy a cool pair of sunglasses, that help clean up the ocean.
I got mine already.

https://products.theoceancleanup.com/?g ... 3cQAvD_BwE

Image
Frickin great! Sort all of your various grades of plastic or drive to the store with a load and put your bottles in a machine for your refund. Trucks then come by and pick up these recyclables, which are transferred to a recycle center. Then these are moved around by heavy equipment, and then loaded onto trucks, and then a train. Then these recyclables make it to a port, where they are loaded onto a large cargo ship and sent halfway across the world to a second or third world country. Either on the way, or after actually having made it to that country, the recyclables are dumped into the ocean where they, over many many years, move to a rotating piece of the ocean where they collect at a great enough density to harvest. Then, some company comes by with another huge specially modified ocean garbage collector ship and picks up this trash. Then it is loaded on to another ship which takes it back to land where it is sorted once again. After all of this, these recyclables are supposedly turned to gold in the eyes of those claiming to love the environment.

Are you getting this? Maybe cut out the freaking middle man? Or would that cost us too many "money for nothing and your hippie chicks for free" jobs, and actually fix some of the problems? Is there seriously no one out there that takes the time to think these things through?

I honestly have to say that by no way, measure, lottery, or even gumball machine prize, could Humanity ever earn the title of "intelligent", on aggregate. We are freaking dumb!
Yes, it makes sense to not let the plastic get into the ocean, but unfortunately the plastic is already there, so don't blame it on the ocean cleanup.

If you are really that concerned, then stop complaining on a forum about companies that actually do something, like a recycled kitbag, and start doing something about it.
E.g. by supporting this company that is busy doing the cleanup.

How can you be against a recycled kitebag, even when a big part of it is marketing. Its still better than a non-recycled kitebag.

Go cleanup a local beach and post pictures of that day on the forum instead, if you are so concerned.
Same goes for topicstarter Dirk.
I agree with you, initiatives such as these are positive and there is no real alternative to recycling. But I expect, even without looking at the details of the production process, looking at the total amount of plastic dumped in the oceans, then anybody thinking this initiative, positive as it is, is making a significant improvement in the situation is just kidding him/herself. I agree with Matteo that we are fooling ourselves by exporting our environmental problems to third world countries (and in many other ways). But I don't think we are prepared/willing to deal with the consequences of not doing that, certainly not by "bringing back production to our own countries" or something like that.
The industry is driven by commercial interests, which in the end are driven by consumer demand/individuals. I see very few individuals around me that are prepared to make any significant changes to their lives for the sake of the environment. If there were (lots of such individuals), then industries might change..

dice
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Re: Eco

Postby dice » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:54 am

Havre wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:04 am
If you would like to have a meta-discussion - what is the alternative to recycling?
According to matteo it's better to throw stuff away and not recycle.
Because (again according to matteo) recycling means it's thrown in the ocean anyways.

Havre
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Re: Eco

Postby Havre » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:59 am

dice wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:54 am
Havre wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:04 am
If you would like to have a meta-discussion - what is the alternative to recycling?
According to matteo it's better to throw stuff away and not recycle.
Because (again according to matteo) recycling means it's thrown in the ocean anyways.
We'll see I guess. I am quite confident that his thinking is slightly more sophisticated than that.

I do share his criticism of how things actually work today by the way. But that is not the meta discussion.

souspeed
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Re: Eco

Postby souspeed » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:36 am

Havre wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:59 am
dice wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:54 am
Havre wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:04 am
If you would like to have a meta-discussion - what is the alternative to recycling?
According to matteo it's better to throw stuff away and not recycle.
Because (again according to matteo) recycling means it's thrown in the ocean anyways.
We'll see I guess. I am quite confident that his thinking is slightly more sophisticated than that.

I do share his criticism of how things actually work today by the way. But that is not the meta discussion.
Let' start with a global ban on the usage of plastic for small packaging and throw away tools, and replace these with biodegradable or durable versions.
Plus each country being responsible for the recycling of their own plastic, and not allowed to export this plastic.

Havre
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Re: Eco

Postby Havre » Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:07 pm

souspeed wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:36 am
Havre wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:59 am
dice wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:54 am


According to matteo it's better to throw stuff away and not recycle.
Because (again according to matteo) recycling means it's thrown in the ocean anyways.
We'll see I guess. I am quite confident that his thinking is slightly more sophisticated than that.

I do share his criticism of how things actually work today by the way. But that is not the meta discussion.
Let' start with a global ban on the usage of plastic for small packaging and throw away tools, and replace these with biodegradable or durable versions.
Plus each country being responsible for the recycling of their own plastic, and not allowed to export this plastic.
I do not know enough about the total picture to have much of an opinion, but seems like a reasonable goal at least.

What I find so sad is how it is impossible at the moment to have a proper nuanced conversation. slide obviously being a good example of someone that is just incapable of having any sort of meaningful discussion with. Plastic is probably doing some harm, but it is also doing a lot of good things for human "life". What if replacing plastic means an increase in Co2-emissions because whatever we replace it with will require more energy to be produced? Doesn't mean in such a situation that I mean plastic should not be replaced, but this requires some deep thinking - and that one cannot have such a discussion based on slogans and instagram pictures of tortoises swallowing plastic.


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